D&D 5E summon animals

[brehobit]

Sorry, Ive forgotten the spell name that summons beasts (3rd level, druid).

Here's my question: if I use the spell to summon 8 wolves (3rd level slot as wolves are 1/4 CR) isn't that going to utterly hose many powerful things? If the target has no area attacks, those wolves are going to hit a lot (advantage), probably knock the target prone (advantage again, doesn't matter much but makes it hard to run away).

Against a single baddy without an area attack, I think the wolves are likely to kill a CR5 or lower creature. And might really mess up others (I think a 9th level fighter would have a hard time fighting 8 wolves. A 9th level rogue would just die I believe).

I've not run any numbers (and don't have the book here) but I'd love to hear what others think. Seems powerful. I know monsters got something of a boost from the playtest. I'm wondering if they should have 't dialed this spell back when they did that...

 

[dco]

Concentration is a problem, the baddy should attack the druid if he knows something about magic.

 

[Joe Liker]

A CR 5 monster is likely to have reactions, multiple attacks, and possibly some sort of defensive maneuver. Those eight wolves are going to deal some damage, certainly, as well they should -- this spell is the same level as lightning bolt, after all.

But I very much doubt they will kill it outright, and the monster should be able to kill several of them as soon as its turn comes around. Or, as suggested above, attack the caster and break his concentration.

 

[Stalker0]

So lets take a look.....AT THE MATH!!

Lets try a CR 5 hill giant vs these 8 wolves...which is a monster probably best served with a conjure spell like this. Many CR 5 monsters have regen or resistance, so summons would be much less effective.

The wolf's proning attack is not going to be a big factor here in this "slug fest", as they get advantage from pack tactics anyway. So effectively...they just always have advantage. Lets see what happens!


If we go with average results, the Giant will kill 1.6 wolves per round (with his damage, hit = dead wolf). Each wolf does 6.3675 DPR with advantage.

If the Wolves win initiative, the giant is killed with 4.8 wolves remaining.
If the Giant wins init, the giant barely wins with 3.12 hitpoints remaining. But with just a little variance, the wolves would have 1.6 wolves remaining.


First of all, shows you the power of initiative! (which in this case the wolves have a big advantage on).


Overall that makes the wolves look pretty darn good. They dish out and tank a lot of damage. In there first round, they deal 50.94 damage (40.752 if the giant kills some wolves first).

 

[Wrathamon]

So lets take a look.....AT THE MATH!!

Lets try a CR 5 hill giant vs these 8 wolves...which is a monster probably best served with a conjure spell like this. Many CR 5 monsters have regen or resistance, so summons would be much less effective.

The wolf's proning attack is not going to be a big factor here in this "slug fest", as they get advantage from pack tactics anyway. So effectively...they just always have advantage. Lets see what happens!


If we go with average results, the Giant will kill 1.6 wolves per round (with his damage, hit = dead wolf). Each wolf does 6.3675 DPR with advantage.

If the Wolves win initiative, the giant is killed with 4.8 wolves remaining.
If the Giant wins init, the giant barely wins with 3.12 hitpoints remaining. But with just a little variance, the wolves would have 1.6 wolves remaining.


First of all, shows you the power of initiative! (which in this case the wolves have a big advantage on).


Overall that makes the wolves look pretty darn good. They dish out and tank a lot of damage. In there first round, they deal 50.94 damage (40.752 if the giant kills some wolves first).

Did you take into account that the last wolf might not have advantage? It seems you already took into account that as the wolves die they deal less damage.

 

[Juriel]

Yes, multiple small minions are damn deadly in this edition. And summons are doubly so, as you tend to be able to summon them to exact spots within range. Also, they act on their own, so at most you need to spend bonus actions on telling them what to do (which could be just 'kill all enemies' once per combat).

Now, compare that to the Beastmaster pet, who does nothing without hand-holding...

(the caveat being that Concentration can make the summons go poof easily enough)

 

[Stalker0]

Did you take into account that the last wolf might not have advantage? It seems you already took into account that as the wolves die they deal less damage.

I did not count the last bit of lost advantage, as it makes almost no difference to the final outcome. I also did not factor in that a hill giant attack that rolls 3,4, or 5 damage on 3d8 doesn't kill a wolf. So its a rough cut analysis, but I think it drives home the point that wolves look pretty good.

In fact...just looking at the PHB, wolves like astoundingly good for their CR compared to others you could summon. Nearly always advantage, great damage, decent to hit. Their AC and HP are a little lower than some, but not that many. Oh and a proneing attack.

 

[Stalker0]

For those curious what a fight would look like with a monster that is stronger against summons, lets look at the CR 5 Earth Elemental.

Roughly the same offense (at least against HP 11 wolves), but with more hp, AC, and resistance to damage.

Wolves win Init: Elemental Wins with 66 hp remaining.
Elemental wins Init: Elemental Wins with 86 hp remaining.

So the wolves did effectively 40-60 damage, and tanked about 70 damage. And here I thought fireball was the end all be all spell, but this spell is a solid choice.

 

[Juriel]

Against non-elementals, on the other hand, you could also just summon Giant Poisonous Snakes, for +3d6 poison damage times 8... And reach, so they can hit anything from behind your frontline.

 

[Stalker0]

And since we are all thinking it...how would a 5th level fighter handle this one 3rd level spell?


Champion Fighter: Plate-Mail + longsword (dueling style).

Str: 18
Con: 16

AC: 20
Attack: +7 (10.5 damage, 15 damage on a crit).

Since the fighter's damage is just on a cusp of killing a wolf, I am going to use an approximation. I will say a hit kills .5 wolves, a crit kill 1. Its not perfect, but it drives the point across.

Wolves with Init: Wolves win in round 2, 7.575 wolves survive.
Fighter with Init: Wolves win in Round 3, 4.375 wolves survive.


So....go after the caster!!!