D&D 5E summon animals

[Astrosicebear]

Yeah, I don't understand why they were so strict about the whole action economy thing with the beastmaster ranger, but let spellcasters summon/animate ridiculous numbers of creatures. It's a really bizarre contradiction.

[Edit]I think they got it backwards. The beastmaster's pet is the one that should be able to act independently, while the spellcasters should be the ones that have to use their actions controlling their summoned creatures(s), IMO.

Mearls has stated that animal companions in previous editions got out of hand. Basically added to action economy of adding another character to the group. We see what basic CR1/4 creatures can do, and in the bounded system you want to give a player the capability of a complete equal character? It would be way, way too powerful.

It may not be popular, but I agree. Animal companions are companions, who can help in a pinch. They are not (at this time) Animal warriors. Maybe down the line you can buff them with feats or something.

 

[SkidAce]

It seems to me that the developers severely underestimated the power of large numbers of weaker creatures in a system with bounded accuracy.

I thought that was the point of bounded accuracy...lower level foes stay relevant.

I wouldn't want to be surrounded by 8 wolves, even with a gun.

 

[Stalker0]

after all, all this math focusses only on the "vs a single baddie" fight

I agree this is most optimal condition for a summons. That said, as the caster chooses when to cast a spell, he can use those spells in the most optimized way

 

[evilbob]

I suppose the idea was that an animal companion is there all the time, but spells are limited. So you don't want the constant effect to be too powerful, since in theory the spells will eventually run out.

Of course, this just leads to more long rests and nova casters, but we can all pretend this didn't happen in 3.5, right?

Honestly I still don't think the summon animal spell(s) have anything on Animate Dead.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I suppose the idea was that an animal companion is there all the time, but spells are limited. So you don't want the constant effect to be too powerful, since in theory the spells will eventually run out.

Yeah, that seems to be the case.

It's OK for a spellcaster using their most powerful spell to dominate an occasional well-suited encounter. There's going to be 5-7 more of those before you can rest if your DM is following the game's design correctly. Fireball the ice elemental, and you'll get a pretty easy victory, and then for the next encounter you can't do that.

The ranger's beast companion is constant, though, so if it were to dominate an encounter, it'd be much more of an issue.

Since the beast companion takes an action to attack, I generally conceive of it as an alternate weapon. That you can attack with at range. For good damage. And often an additional effect like prone. And that comes with an HP total and defenses that monsters can target instead of you. And that has skills like Perception that increase the number of checks a party gets.

It'd be like if wizards got a cantrip that dealt 1d8 damage and knocked a creature prone and provided an extra 10 temp hp and advantage on Wisdom checks and imposed disadvantage on all attacks.

...not sure that the companion is powerful enough, but it's not nothin'.

 

[Joe Liker]

Is a giant a humanoid? Because it seems like hold person might be a much easier way to deal with a single hill giant. I can't imagine their Wisdom save is all that high.

My point, of course, is that there are lots (lots and lots!) of spells that can make short work of a single enemy.

Every spell is situational. It's easy to imagine a spell is OP if you only think about the one situation it is best suited for. I can think of plenty of situations where summoning eight wolves would be the least useful ability in the world.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I thought that was the point of bounded accuracy...lower level foes stay relevant.

I wouldn't want to be surrounded by 8 wolves, even with a gun.

The problem isn't that 8 wolves can be dangerous, the problem is that PCs can summon 8 wolves (or even more at higher levels).

 

[Falling Icicle]

Mearls has stated that animal companions in previous editions got out of hand.

And summoned monsters and animated dead weren't?

Basically added to action economy of adding another character to the group. We see what basic CR1/4 creatures can do, and in the bounded system you want to give a player the capability of a complete equal character? It would be way, way too powerful.

The beastmaster's animal companion is nowhere near equal to another character.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I suppose the idea was that an animal companion is there all the time, but spells are limited. So you don't want the constant effect to be too powerful, since in theory the spells will eventually run out.

Rangers are getting an animal companion as a subclass. Being a beast master means you're not a hunter and don't have things like colossus slayer.

Of course, this just leads to more long rests and nova casters, but we can all pretend this didn't happen in 3.5, right?

Honestly I still don't think the summon animal spell(s) have anything on Animate Dead.

Animate dead is broken for all the same reasons. It's even more broken because it's permanent and doesn't require concentration, unlike summoning spells.

 

[treebear]

The problem is the designers keep the CR# times #of creatures the same namely 2. CR2 you get one, CR1/4 you get 8 etc. Cheaper more numerous things be they tanks or monsters will be more effective than fewer more expensive ones when this is the case within reason.

Wizards recognized this in encounter building. I think it was the GM's online document for running organized play that they give guidelines and factors for adjusting the experience budget for encounter building, based on the number and experience cost of the creatures. The guidelines up the difficulty of an encounter using factors tied to the number of creatures in the encounter. A single Hill Giant at 1800xp would be a medium encounter for 4 5th level adventures. 10 CR 1/2 Orcs at 100 xp each would be hard encounter for 4 5th level adventures, because the 10 orcs are a "gang" which has a factor of 2.5 making them the equivalent of 2500 xp for purposes of determining encounter difficulty.