Summon Monster - New List (long)

[Dark Dragon]

Hi folks,

recently I compared the CR values of the different monsters in the Summon Monster I - IX and Summon Nature's Ally I - IX lists...While the SNA list is quite homogenous, the summonable monsters from SM seem to be a) relicts from AD&D and/or b) chosen randomly from the MM...

Reasons for some changes: Flying and elemental (the four true ones) creatures are a bit lower in CR because they're more flexible. Aquatic creatures are a bit higher because they are useful only under special circumstances.
The lists are shorter (less evil creatures, who are in most cases only usable by the DM, and a few more good creatures to get it balanced).

So I've made a few changes as follows (alignment and size in brackets):

Level 1 CR 1/2
- Celestial dog (LG) 1/3 => replaced: Celestial baboon (LG)
- Celestial badger (CG) 1/2
- Formian worker (LN) 1/2
- Fiendish dire rat (LE) 1/3 => replaced: Fiendish centipede (M) (LE) 1/2
- Fiendish hawk - flying (CE) 1/3 => replaced: Fiendish orc (CE) 1/2

Level 2 CR 1
- Celestial light war horse (LG) 1
- Pseudodragon - flying (NG) 1
- Celestial lizardfolk (NG) 1
- Celestial eagle - flying (CG) 1/2 => replaced: Celestial wolf (CG) 1
- Formian worker (LN) 1/2 => replaced: Giant ant worker (LN) 1
- Elemental (S) (- aquatic / flying) (N) 1
- Lemure (LE) 1
- Fiendish squid - aquatic (LE) 1 => removed
- Fiendish wolf (LE) 1 => replaced: Fiendish darkmantle - flying (LE) 1
- Fiendish shark (M) - aquatic (NE) 1
- Fiendish viper (T) 1/3 (CE) => replaced: Fiendish viper (M) (CE) 1
- Fiendish hyena (CE) 1 => removed
- Fiendish octopus - aquatic (CE) 1

Level 3 CR 2, 3 for aquatic
- Celestial black bear (LG) 2
- Celestial cheetah (NG) 2
- Celestial bison (NG) 3 => replaced: Celestial shocker lizard (NG) 2
- Triton (NG) 4 => replaced: Celestial tojanida (S) - aquatic (NG) 3
- Celestial dire badger (CG) 2
- Azer (LN) 2
- Elementral (S) (- aquatic / flying) (N) 1 => moved to level 2
- Thoqqua (N) 2
- Fiendish dire weasel (LE) 2
- Fiendish dire ape (LE) 3 => removed
- Fiendish constrictor (LE) 2
- Fiendish boar (NE) 2 => removed
- Fiendish dire bat - flying (NE) 3 => moved to level 4
- Fiendish giant lizard (NE) 2 => removed
- Salamander (S) (NE) 2
- Fiendish shark (L) - aquatic (NE) 3
- Fiendish viper (S) (CE) 1/2 => replaced: Fiendish viper (L) (CE) 2
- Fiendish crocodile (CE) 2 => removed
- Dretch (CE) 2
- Fiendish leopard (CE) 2 => removed
- Fiendish wolverine (CE) 2 => removed

Level 4 CR 3, 2-3 for flying and elemental, 4 for aquatic
- Lantern archon - flying (LG) 2
- Giant owl - flying (NG) 3
- Centaur (NG) 3
- Giant eagle - flying (CG) 3
- Celestial lion (CG) 4 => replaced: Unicorn (CG) 3
- Tojanida (S) - aquatic (N) 3 => replaced: Sea lion - aquatic (N) 4
- Elemental (M) (- aquatic / flying) (N) 3
- Xorn (S) (N) 3 => removed
- Arrowhawk (S) - flying (N) 3
- Magmin (CN)
- Imp - flying (LE) 2
- Fiendish dire ape (LE) 4 => removed
- Fiendish dire wolf (LE) 4 => removed
- Hell hound (LE) 3
- Yeth hound - flying (NE) 3
- Varguouille - flying (NE) 2 => replaced: Fiendish dire bat - flying (NE) 3
- Fiendish viper (M) (CE) 1 => replaced / level 2: Quasit - flying (CE) 3
- Howler (CE) 3

Level 5 CR 4-5, flying, elemental 4, aquatic 5-7
- Celestial brown bear (LG) 5
- Hound archon (LG) 4
- Celestial orca - aquatic (NG) 7
- Celestial pegasus - flying (CG) 4
- Celestial dire lion (CG) 7 => replaced / level 6: Celestial hydra, 5 heads (NG) 5
- Formian warrior (LN) 3 => removed
- Elemental (M) (- aquatic / flying) (N) 3 => moved to level 4
- Mephit (- aquatic / flying) (N) 3 => removed
- Arrowhawk (M) - flying (N) 5 => replaced: Griffon - flying (N) 4
- Tojanida (M) - aquatic (N) 5 => replaced: Water elemental (L) - aquatic (N) 5
- Achaierai (LE) 5
- Fiendish griffon - flying (LE) 5 => replaced: Fiendish giant wasp - flying (LE) 4
- Fiendish giant constrictor (LE) 7 => removed
- Yeth hound - flying (NE) 3 => moved to level 4
- Fiendish dire boar (NE) 5 => removed
- Fiendish rhinoceros (NE) 6 => moved to level 6
- Fiendish shark (L) - aquatic (NE) 3 => moved to level 3
- Salamander (M) (NE) 5
- Shadow mastiff (NE) 5
- Fiendish viper (L) (CE) 2 => moved to level 3
- Quasit - flying (CE) 3 => moved to level 4
- Fiendish dire wolverine (CE) 5
- Fiendish giant crocodile (CE) 5
- Fiendish tiger (CE) 5 => removed
- Fiendish girallon (CE) 6 => removed

Level 6 CR 6-7. flying, elemental 5-6, aquatic 8-9
- Celestial dire bear (LG) 9 => replaced / level 7: Celestial polar bear (LG) 6
- Celestial griffon - flying (NG) 5
- Celestial unicorn (CG) 4 => replaced: Celestial dire lion (CG) 7
- Elemental (L) (- aquatic / flying) (N) 5
- Rast - flying (N) 5
- Xorn (M) (N) 6
- Red slaad (CN) 7
- Chaos beast (CN) 7
- Kyton (LE) 6 => removed
- Barbazu (LE) 7
- Bezekira (LE) 7 => removed
- Erinyes - flying (LE) 7 => replaced: Nightmare - flying (NE) 5
- Belker - flying (NE) 6
- Fiendish viper (H) (CE) 4 => replaced: Fiendish rhinoceros (CE) 6

Level 7 CR 8-9, flying, elemental 7-8, aquatic 9-10
- Celestial elephant (NG) => replaced / level 8: Celestial dire bear (LG) 9
- Lammasu - flying (LG) 8
- Avoral guardinal - flying (NG) 9 => replaced / level 8: Celestial ravid - flying (NG)
- Djinni - flying (CG) 5 => replaced: Celestial young brass dragon - flying (CG) 7
- Ravid - flying (N) 5 => removed
- Elemental (- aquatic / flying) (H) (N) 7
- Invisible stalker - flying (N) 7
- Xorn (L) (N) 8
- Arrowhawk (L) - flying (N) 8 => removed
- Tojanida (L) - aquatic (N) 9
- Blue slaad (CN) 8
- Hamatula (LE) 8
- Osyluth (LE) 6 => replaced: Fiendish wyvern - flying (NE) 8
- Fiendish dire tiger (CE) 10 => removed
- Bebilith (CE) 9
- Fiendish giant octopus - aquatic (CE) 10

Level 8 CR 10-11, flying, elemental 9, aquatic 11-12
- Guardian naga (LG) 10
- Lillend - flying (CG) 7 => replaced: Avoral guardinal - flying (NG) 9
- Celestial elephant (NG) 10
- Formian taskmaster, alone (LN) 7 => replaced: Hydra, 12 heads (N) 11
- Janni - flying (N) 4 => removed
- Greater elemental (- aquatic / flying) (N) 9
- Barghest (M) (LE) 4 => removed
- Cornugon - flying (LE) 10 => replaced : Fiendish chimera - flying (LE) 9
- Fiendish giant squid - aquatic (LE) 11
- Salamander (L) (NE) 9 => replaced: Cloud giant (NE) 11
- Succubus - flying (CE) 9

Level 9 CR 13-14, flying, elemental 11-12, aquatic 15
- Lammasu - flying (LG) 8 => replaced / level 7: Celestial androsphinx - flying (CG) 11
- Couatl - flying (LG) 10 => replaced: Celestial couatl - flying (LG) 12
- Astral deva - flying (NG) 14 => replaced: Celestial yrthak - flying (NG) 11
- Ghaele eladrin - flying (CG) 13 => replaced: Celestial juvenile gold dragon - flying (LG) 12
- Storm giant (CG) 13
- Elder elemental (- aquatic / flying) (N) 11
- Death slaad (CN) 13
- Fiendish kraken - aquatic (NE) 14
- Barghest (L) (LE) 5 => removed
- Xill (LE) 6 => removed
- Rakshasa (LE) 9 => replaced: Fiendish pyro hydra, 11 heads (LE) 14
- Gelugon (LE) 13
- Night hag (NE) 9 => replaced: Fiendish cloud giant (NE) 13
- Nightmare - flying (NE) 5 => replaced / level 6: Fiendish roc - flying (NE) 11
- Vrock - flying (CE) 13 => replaced: Fiendish juvenile red dragon - flying (CE) 11

Ok, what do you think of it?

EDIT: Had to move some "B" at a proper place

 

[Essence]

I love it! Thank you for the work you've done; it's going to make playing a summoner much more viable.

 

[Olive]

have you looked at the expanding the summoning rules from that recent dragon article?

I'm also a wee bit confused about why you dumped the vrock and Rakshasa etc. because of the CR issues?

 

[Iron_Chef]

"Less evil monsters"??? Um, no.

I think you're doing a good job and commend you on your work, but would like to point out that you're going about it a bit shortsighted.

Removing evil monsters from the list is a bad idea. Here's why:

1) Lots of people play evil characters.

2) The DM always plays evil NPCs.

3) Both groups need to be able to summon evil monsters.

Arbitrarily deciding that the list needs "less evil monsters" because that fits your particular play style is a bad idea because it makes your project much less useful to the rest of us. Other than that, keep up the good work.

 

[Olive]

I agree on the removing evil creatures stuff Iron_Chef said...

 

[Gez]

Furthermore, there is much more evil outsiders (especially the chaotic evil ones, the most diverse) than good.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Re: "Less evil monsters"??? Um, no.

Originally posted by Olive
have you looked at the expanding the summoning rules from that recent dragon article?
I'm also a wee bit confused about why you dumped the vrock and Rakshasa etc. because of the CR issues?

Unfortunately, I have no access to the Dragon Magazine..

Well, the CR for a Rakshasa (CR 9) is quite low for a level 9 spell compared to a (perhaps flying, reaching) Elder Elemental or even a flying Astral Deva...
The Vrock (CR 13) is a bit too powerful for this level, or, better wording, a CR 13 flying, spell casting creature is some serious stuff. Take a flying level 13 wizard and you know what I mean . (And I'd say that a level 11 flying wizzie would pose nearly the same threat, but that's just IMHO).
After three years playing D&D 3rd ed., I'd say that flying creatures are quite difficult to handle, especially the spell casting ones. I admit that some CR are not correct (the dragons are a good example) and hope that ed. 3.5 will fix the problem.

I checked the CR for the creatures on the Summon Nature's Ally lists and compared it with Summon Monster. SNA is quite ok (with a few exceptions, e.g. the grig) and was a good base to change SM I-IX.

One point to the dragons I've put on the list: I used the CR from the MM. I know that it could be too low, but I didn't had the time for a test (next session of the group testing a homebrewed D&D is in april and I have the hands full of work to do...)

I think you're doing a good job and commend you on your work, but would like to point out that you're going about it a bit shortsighted.

Removing evil monsters from the list is a bad idea. Here's why:

1) Lots of people play evil characters.

2) The DM always plays evil NPCs.

3) Both groups need to be able to summon evil monsters.

Arbitrarily deciding that the list needs "less evil monsters" because that fits your particular play style is a bad idea because it makes your project much less useful to the rest of us. Other than that, keep up the good work.

Good arguments! Hmm, instead of removing some evil creatures, a better approach would be to put some more good ones to the list.
The problem is that some levels don't offer versatility for the players when their wizard or clerics (who are good aligned sometimes...) wants to summon a good monster. See levels 2 and 8: one good monster, some are neutral, most are evil.

Originally posted by Gez
Furthermore, there is much more evil outsiders (especially the chaotic evil ones, the most diverse) than good.

Right. Each level has one more evil monsters than good ones on the list. OK, perhaps the greater part of them is not CE, but that can be easily fixed.
My concern was to get a balanced list for PCs of good and evil alignment. If the party is evil, the DM should be able to throw some good summoned critters at them.

Any proposals (monsters, CR level changes) will be appretiated.

Thanx for the input so far!

 

[Olive]

i'll try to sum up what the Dragon article says once i can get into the room it's in (guests asleep right now in there).

One thing to think about is that dragons in particular, but most fiends as well, are considered to be CR for a prepared party. Most other CRs are for an unprepared party (as in have not specifically learned spells in order to deal with a threat).

So you might want to consider dragons and fieds to be on CR higher than indicated.

 

[green slime]

I think this is good work, and agree with the comments others have made.

I have done something similar, and will post that here as well, sometime this evening or tomorrow. (Work today, friends this evening, hopefully not too late...)

Some further comments:

As regards the the CR13 Vrock being too powerful... This is a 9th level spell. Summon Monster IX... The same level as Wish, Time Stop, and... Gate. The caster is at least 17th level!!

Also, 8 Formian Workers can cast Cure Serious Wounds, IIRC... Thus I'm wary of seeing them in a 1st level wizard spell...A 5th+ level wizard could then summon 1d4+1 of the little things and...Well, some may like it. I prefer healing to be more difficult for Wizards.

 

[Olive]

Also, 8 Formian Workers can cast Cure Serious Wounds, IIRC... Thus I'm wary of seeing them in a 1st level wizard spell...A 5th+ level wizard could then summon 1d4+1 of the little things and...Well, some may like it. I prefer healing to be more difficult for Wizards.

See this is the problem with assigning summoning levels by CR. You need to take specific abilities into account too!