Summon Monster

[Pickaxe]

1. Do you feel the Summon Monster series is strong or weak? Why and to what extent?

I would agree that they are pretty balanced. Summon Nature's Ally is better at low levels, but that's because SM creatures are considered to be better since they are celestial or fiendish. Once celestial/fiendish creatures reach 5HD (SMIII), they get DR, which makes them more attractive. Even lower level SM creatures get smite good/evil. I've only experienced these at lower levels, but I'm considering taking them at higher levels for my sorcerer.

2. If you use these spells, or your players do, what are their results? How are they commonly used. If you don't use these spells, why not?

Flanking has been mentioned. You can also put them in a position to make AoO. Choosing flying or fast creatures makes it easier to pursue.

The most impressive use of the spells was in an encounter where everyone in the party had been incapacitated (by a yellow musk creeper), except the gnome cleric, who was being pursued (slowly) by a couple of zombies. She pulled out a couple of summon monster I and II scrolls (using the latter to summon multiple SMI creatures) and managed to kill everything off herself, saving the party.

3. Is it class specific? I.e. is it worth it for wizards because it's so versatile, but not as much for clerics since they're restricted by alignment. What about sorcerors?

Druids (Summon Nature's Ally in their case, of course) can summon spontaneously, which means they can really take advantage of the versatility. My third level druid has done this a number of times already. Likewise, sorcerers can spontaneously cast SM, if they take it.

A friend has a cleric1/wizard2 built as a summoner. He has the good domain, so he gets an extra round out of his SM spells, and he is a conjuration specialist. He usually prepares 3 SMI spells and no Magic Missile. It's not bad, but the fact that we go through his Magic Missile scrolls like they were going out of style illustrates that this is probably not an optimal build.

4. Are some iterations of the series worth more than others? I.e. is it worth a 5th level slot to summon a Hound Archon for 9+ rounds, but not a 4th level slot to summon a lantern archon for 7+ rounds?

It comes down to the value of the spell compared to others of the same level. SMI will look bad next to Magic Missile, Mage Armor, and Shield, among others. SMIII also has too many good arcane spells to compete with. SMIV and higher are interesting because celestial creatures have DR starting at SMIII, so you can summon a bunch of celestial lions with SMIV or SMV, not to mention other good things, like archons.

5. Whatever else you have to say on the topic.

Overall, I think they are good spells with good versatility. My 3rd level druid can now summon hippogriffs, black bears, crocodiles, and dire bats, which each come in handy in different situations.

--Axe

 

[Jesus_marley]

Why are you wasting your money on MM scrolls?? cast sleep and have the SMs coup de grace all the slumbering bad guys while you sit back and laugh.... keep a few MM around for tight spots but at low levels there are much more versatile spells.

 

[der_kluge]

I hate the duration. A 1st level conjurer would be more effective falling on their sword in battle. They're going to spend a round summoning a creature that'll be gone in 6 seconds. Dumb.

I also hate that they're all templated. So, the GM has to stop and apply the appropriate template to some creature on the fly. I had downloaded something that had pre-created them all, but I've since lost it.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

In my games they suck.

the 1 round casting time is the kicker especially with the short duration. Anything that takes 1 round to cast should be superior to the other spells of its level, I'd be hard pressed to call them equal to anything but some low level cleric spells.

In 3.0 you could summon creatures with a wide variety of options especially at high levels, and it was maybe too good with things like celestials that could cast spells like a cleric or 14th level. Hey yeah i want heal on my spells list. Taking those off the lists was a good idea, but they upped the levels on some combat oriented ones and removed others with versatility with too heavy of a hammer, and that was a bad idea.

They should either have durations which allow them to be cast well in advance of conflict.(though spells with a duration that aproaches useful went out of style) Or they should have a cast time of 1 standard action. Or they should be greatly upped in power. Heck I think you could make it 1 standard aciton and with a duration of 1 min per level and they'd still be balanced.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I played a conjurer in a 3.5 Planescape game, and he was a seriously cool--and very effective--character.

However, I should point out that I made use of the variant conjurer from Unearthed Arcana, which means my summoning spells were standard actions. That minor tweak made a huge difference.

My creatures were effective in offense, but also defensively--step back from a foe and summon a creature between us--and as scouts. No, I wasn't dealing out as much damage in a given round as an evoker, but I was far from weak.

So in those circumstances, they're worth it, but I can't speak for those not using that variant.

 

[Krug]

I play a conjurer/summoner in a PbP game, and yes, the full round casting action hurts, along with the short duration time. I now have a wand of magic missiles, and if I'm trying to be a factor in combat, that is usually (and unfortunately) more effective.

 

[Kalendraf]

1. Do you feel the Summon Monster series is strong or weak? Why and to what extent?

I feel they are slightly (but only slightly) underpowered compared to a select set of other spells. The duration is the main problem at the earliest levels, while the summoned choices are a bit limited at certain levels. In spite of that, they are still good spells.

2. If you use these spells, or your players do, what are their results? How are they commonly used. If you don't use these spells, why not?

The last 3 groups I've DM'ed for (1 current) have cast summon spells on a fairly regular basis. In combat, the creatures are used to setup flanking against select foes, and to provide extra meat-shields against overwhelming numbers of attackers. As DM, I commonly have the NPC casters toss out a summoned monster from time to time, sometimes with devestating results.

Also, don't overlook the usefulness of summoned creatures for utility. Water elementals are helpful in putting out fires, Earth elementals can help dig. Aquatic creatures can help rescue a drowning victim, or retrieve items deep in the water. Flying creatures can help reach or track flying enemies. I'd estimate that at least 1/3 of the time that creatures are summoned by my groups they are used for these kinds of utility functions to great effect.

3. Is it class specific? I.e. is it worth it for wizards because it's so versatile, but not as much for clerics since they're restricted by alignment. What about sorcerors?

The party casters that use them have primarily been Clerics and Druids. The alignment is not an issue. Arcane spells in general seem to be a bit stronger, IMHO, and that is probably why the wizards & sorcerers tend to use other stronger options instead. You didn't mention bards, but they obviously have problems getting the equivalent spells far later than other casters do which seems to be too late to be of much use.

4. Are some iterations of the series worth more than others? I.e. is it worth a 5th level slot to summon a Hound Archon for 9+ rounds, but not a 4th level slot to summon a lantern archon for 7+ rounds?

Both Summon IV and Summon V seem to be pretty useful. I have less experience with the summon spells past those. The earlier ones seem a bit weak in terms of what they can summon.

5. Whatever else you have to say on the topic.

Party composition factors heavily into how useful summoned creatures are. Foremost is whether there is a rogue in the party. If so, they are going to enjoy having summoned creatures magically appear to grant them flanking. This alone often makes a summoned creature well worth it. Just putting that creature there may enable the rogue to dishout several extra d6 of sneak damage per turn. Another case is in a party with many casters, but few tanks. This is a spot where summoned creatures can help and take the place of the missing melee characters. That is probably less likely, but I have seen a few caster heavy parties like that.

As I mentioned, one of the biggest problems for low-level casters is the duration. Why would a 1st level caster bother with Summon 1 if it only lasts 1 round? One possible fix here is to houserule it, and have summoned creatures last 3+Clvl rounds instead. That helps low-level casters have their creature last a minimum of 4 rounds. High level casters get some help as well, but at higher levels you'll usually see damage to the creature being it's limiting factor rather than the caster duration.

Finally, don't forget that the summoned creatures can be buffed up just like the rest of the party. Augment Summoning is one option, but don't overlook options like Bless, Haste or bard songs.

 

[Storyteller01]

I've never felt that summoners got a fair shake in 3E, in as much as the spells have some use, they aren't very powerful in comparison to many other spells of equivalent level.

Which is why I wrote a sourcebook about it, that Ronin Arts has up for sale. If you give me your email address, I rustle you up a copy of it for free. It's got lots of options for increasing the versatility and use of summon monster, and summon nature's ally too.

Patrick Y.

Would love a copy. Email:jgiesea81mm@yahoo.com.

If free is a problem, let me know how much cash may be needed. Hope you take money orders!!

 

[Undead Pete]

As a DM, I despise Summon Monster spells.....especially when the player is unprepared. Nothing slows down combat more.

 

[Kalendraf]

As a DM, I despise Summon Monster spells.....especially when the player is unprepared. Nothing slows down combat more.

Any player in my group has a list handy with the stats for the summons they can cast. I highly recommend that approach for anyone who is going to cast these kinds of spells, including the DM.