Summoning Ifrit

[Pyrex]

Personally I'd have them as unique additions to the Summon Monster list that you can only call upon after doing the traditional 'fight the creature' thing, and being granted the ability to summon them.

I'd go one better here. Once you've tracked down and battled Ifrit for the right to summon him (i.e. you gain knowledge of his True Name) instead of adding him to the Summon 8 list (for example) I'd instead add him to the Summon 5 (or so) list with the note that when using a True Name to summon a unique creature the spell only lasts one round.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I like Sigurd's explanation.

 

[moritheil]

This is not DM fiat; it is in the description of the effreeti, and has been for a couple of versions. If they removed it, then, well, that's new. I do not recommend deliberately screwing over players, but nor do I recommend letting them get off lightly, and if the rules call for the wishes to be interpreted perversely, the DM isn't helping things by ignoring the rules.

So it sounds like the only reason to not do this has nothing to do with the game but fiat of the DM. That sounds kind of lame to me. If I was the DM and a player was knowledgable enough to know about efreeti, was sly enough to engineer an appropriate planar binding, and crafty enough to propose an amenable set of wishes, I am not going to alter what that player wants just because he used game mechanics effectively - that would just be assanine.

Heck, as a player casting planar binding I would pose it like this: "Efreeti, I would like you to grant me 3 wishes, the third of which I will use to benefit you (without any harm to myself). You don't have to grant me these wishes. In fact, you can go back to your plane at any time. But I have a feeling you might want to stick around and reap the benefits of that third wish. What say you?"

If I was a player and the DM continually made every Efreeti warp the wishes I was asking for even after using a wish for the efreeti, I would know that the problem was not with the Efreeti, or the spell but with my DM.

 

[IcyCool]

If I was a player and the DM continually made every Efreeti warp the wishes I was asking for even after using a wish for the efreeti, I would know that the problem was not with the Efreeti, or the spell but with my DM.

As others have mentioned, Efreeti are always lawful evil. They enjoy twisting the rules. Why would they trust said wizard when he offers them the benefits of one wish? Maybe if he had the wizard dominated I could see it. Also, depending on the wish, the wish itself might pervert the wisher's intent (as per the description of the Wish spell).

In answer to your question as to why every semi-competent wizard isn't binding and Efreet and forcing wishes out of him I have two things to say:

1. The Efreet is under no obligation to grant said wish. If it does, the wizard has either offered something damn good in return (something more than a potentially empty promise), or the Efreet is getting ready to mess with the wizard. I'd imagine that with a long lifespan (possibly immortal), finding amusement becomes a high priority.

2. Not too many wizards will get the chance to perfect this tactic via trial and error, so they'd better get it right the first time.

That said, if a player of mine bound an Efreet, managed to convince it to grant him a wish, and worded said wish in such a way (sadly, it would probably be a 30-page legal doc) that it couldn't backfire, then good for him, he gets a wish. Was it free? Heck no, that's a whole lot of work to go through. Could he just spend the xp, and get a standard wish from the list in the description of the Wish spell without all that trouble? Yep. Is it free? Nope.

 

[Gaiden]

As others have mentioned, Efreeti are always lawful evil. They enjoy twisting the rules. Why would they trust said wizard when he offers them the benefits of one wish? Maybe if he had the wizard dominated I could see it. Also, depending on the wish, the wish itself might pervert the wisher's intent (as per the description of the Wish spell).

In answer to your question as to why every semi-competent wizard isn't binding and Efreet and forcing wishes out of him I have two things to say:

1. The Efreet is under no obligation to grant said wish. If it does, the wizard has either offered something damn good in return (something more than a potentially empty promise), or the Efreet is getting ready to mess with the wizard. I'd imagine that with a long lifespan (possibly immortal), finding amusement becomes a high priority.

2. Not too many wizards will get the chance to perfect this tactic via trial and error, so they'd better get it right the first time.

That said, if a player of mine bound an Efreet, managed to convince it to grant him a wish, and worded said wish in such a way (sadly, it would probably be a 30-page legal doc) that it couldn't backfire, then good for him, he gets a wish. Was it free? Heck no, that's a whole lot of work to go through. Could he just spend the xp, and get a standard wish from the list in the description of the Wish spell without all that trouble? Yep. Is it free? Nope.

One Word: Level

 

[IcyCool]

One Word: Level

What is that in reference to?

 

[Gaiden]

What is that in reference to?

You can summon an Ifrit as early as level 11. You don't get wish until, at earliest, level 17.

On another note, I am surprised at the overwhelming voice against using efreeti to get wishes at level 11. This is a rules forum, not a general rpg discussion forum. Rules wise, as far as I can tell this is legit. Sure, the efreeti does not have to grant the wish - but then he might be sitting around for a long while. Moreover, the whole bit about Sigurd's description about how wishes are granted is great flavor but has nothing to do with the rules. RAW, Efreeti have the power to grant wishes with the caveat that the wish cannot be made by a genie. Whose to say that it takes effort? It could be a mere snap of the fingers.

The danger is that due to an efreeti's alignment, s/he may try and screw you over. So knowing this, you adequately prepare your agreement with the efreeti so that s/he would be unable to screw you over.

And why is every efreeti not going to believe you when you offer the third wish for the efreeti. I would imagine that most if not all would be skeptical - sure. But a simple diplomacy check I am guessing could solve that for at least some efreeti.

Every reason I see as to the hesistation is something having nothing to do with the rules but DM style - playing all efreeti a certain way, or when you make the wish it will backfire unless you prepare said 3 - 10 page "legal" document, etc.

Someone give me a rules based reason why every wizard should not be doing this.

Playing devil's advocate, I see no reason why the wish should not work but if performed often enough would result in the backlash of the efreeti race. They can planeshift at will. So if provoked enough they may come and hunt you down afterwards. This would not just be DM style but plain sense. If you force a creature that can find you into temporary servitude it might want some sort of revenge on you.

It really all goes back to your bargaining. The efreeti can't make the wish him/her self. You offer to give the third wish to him. RAW, there is nothing the efreeti loses by granting you the first 2 wishes except perhaps pride at being subjected to this wizard's will. But wishing for let's say the efreeti to gain cold resistance for example as your third wish I can't help but feel would ameliorate any hard feelings. Moreover, if you are having a problem with the current efreeti, just call another one. Explain that you called this efreeti, here is your deal, and if he doesn't like it he can just go back to the City of Brass and you will call another who is more reasonable.

I think that what is going on is a hesitation to concede to this loophole because of potential abuse in terms of game balance. That's fine (if that is the case) but just be honest - say it is unbalancing and you would not allow it.

 

[IcyCool]

Rules wise, as far as I can tell this is legit.

No one said it wasn't.

The danger is that due to an efreeti's alignment, s/he may try and screw you over. So knowing this, you adequately prepare your agreement with the efreeti so that s/he would be unable to screw you over.

I'd argue that you should replace the "may try and screw you over" to "almost always will try and srew you over". That is what Lawful Evil seems to be to me.

And why is every efreeti not going to believe you when you offer the third wish for the efreeti. I would imagine that most if not all would be skeptical - sure. But a simple diplomacy check I am guessing could solve that for at least some efreeti.

Why should any Efreeti bother to take the chance? The only thing the Efreet loses is time.

Someone give me a rules based reason why every wizard should not be doing this.

Well, you are asking a subjective question, so here you go:

1. Efreeti are Lawful Evil beings.
2. Bargaining with them is not guaranteed to work.
3. An Efreet is capable of Plane Shifting.

There's three.

No one is arguing that a wizard can't do this.

I think that what is going on is a hesitation to concede to this loophole because of potential abuse in terms of game balance. That's fine (if that is the case) but just be honest - say it is unbalancing and you would not allow it.

I guess I don't see it as a loophole. You are making a pretty big assumption in thinking that convincing the Efreet to grant you a wish is automatic, and that it comes without strings attached. Now, if I had a player who thought this, or this was how the rule worked, then yes, it would be unbalancing. As I don't think it's unbalanced, I'll happily allow a player to give it a shot.

 

[Gaiden]

No one said it wasn't.



I'd argue that you should replace the "may try and screw you over" to "almost always will try and srew you over". That is what Lawful Evil seems to be to me.



Why should any Efreeti bother to take the chance? The only thing the Efreet loses is time.



Well, you are asking a subjective question, so here you go:

1. Efreeti are Lawful Evil beings.
2. Bargaining with them is not guaranteed to work.
3. An Efreet is capable of Plane Shifting.

There's three.

No one is arguing that a wizard can't do this.



I guess I don't see it as a loophole. You are making a pretty big assumption in thinking that convincing the Efreet to grant you a wish is automatic, and that it comes without strings attached. Now, if I had a player who thought this, or this was how the rule worked, then yes, it would be unbalancing. As I don't think it's unbalanced, I'll happily allow a player to give it a shot.

Great response, Icy Cool. I agree with your suggested change of "almost always will try and screw you over".

Perhaps I am being too nonchalant about an efreeti's malace in terms of likelihood of getting the wish out of him/her. From my experience with LE creatures (specifically, dragons), very intelligent LE creatures may be out to subvert the rules but are not malicious in the same way CE creatures are. They are primarily interested in their own benefit. If they want to subvert the rules, it will typically be to their own benefit if at all possible, but they still abide by the letter of whatever their agreement is, perhaps not the intent though.

The whole thing is getting the efreeti to grant you the wishes in the first place. I think this is possible, but again, you are right, that is a very subjective conclusion.

Thanks for the response.

 

[IcyCool]

Great response, Icy Cool.

Thanks!

Perhaps I am being too nonchalant about an efreeti's malace in terms of likelihood of getting the wish out of him/her. From my experience with LE creatures (specifically, dragons), very intelligent LE creatures may be out to subvert the rules but are not malicious in the same way CE creatures are. They are primarily interested in their own benefit. If they want to subvert the rules, it will typically be to their own benefit if at all possible, but they still abide by the letter of whatever their agreement is, perhaps not the intent though.

Think of it like this, Pit Fiends are Lawful Evil too.

The whole thing is getting the efreeti to grant you the wishes in the first place. I think this is possible, but again, you are right, that is a very subjective conclusion.

Well, it is certainly possible. There is no RAW ruling on how easy it's going to be though. The only thing I can find is the section on the Lawful Evil alignment:

Lawful Evil, “Dominator”: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

Lawful evil is sometimes called “diabolical,” because devils are the epitome of lawful evil.

Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.

Take from that what you will.

Now, summoning a Noble Djinn for wishes? That's broken.