Sunder -- The most useful useless feat

[Xarlen]

No, no one is going to Sunder Excalibar. But that's likely because it was a +4 or so weapon, and thus couldn't have been sundered by many other equal ones.

In D&D, combat is not Dangerous. In Dangerous, I mean 'Oh, well, I die? Okay, Cleric, raise me/res/true res me.' So, what do you do when they don't fear death? Destroy their stuff.

If nothing instills the fear, then it's just idle, boring hack and slash, bla bla, OH, we killed him? Yaay.

Y'know, I remember back in 2e where Drow magical weapons couldn't be taken out of the underdark Or They Melted. How would you like that Fancy little Bow O' Death you got off the Drow to fall apart in sunlight? Drow are Not to be tangled with lightly.

If you're playing in a Low magic world, then either A) The characters should be grenade diving to keep their weapons, or B) You shouldn't do it in the first place. But if they treat their weapons like the slot fillers that they Are in D&D, well go for it.

The cleric in my game has a +1 flail. At 10th level. He doesn't really want to get anything better, because the character really doesn't Care about his flail. Of course, the player isn't all happy about combat in general, but that's neither here nor there.

If I sundered his Flail, he'd likely want a replacement, but otherwise, not care.

 

[Rackhir]

Slightly edited by Rackhir
1)No, no one is going to Sunder Excalibar. But that's likely because it was a +4 or so weapon, and thus couldn't have been sundered by many other equal ones.
....
2) If nothing instills the fear, then it's just idle, boring hack and slash, bla bla, OH, we killed him? Yaay.
....
3) The cleric in my game has a +1 flail. At 10th level. He doesn't really want to get anything better, because the character really doesn't Care about his flail. Of course, the player isn't all happy about combat in general, but that's neither here nor there.

If I sundered his Flail, he'd likely want a replacement, but otherwise, not care.

1) Actually, your Excalibur could easily be sundered through the use of GMW and that would only require a 12th level caster or an 8th level cleric with a pearl of power. That's part of the problem.

The other part of the problem, is that there is an infinite supply of mooks who can be granted +5 weapons (via GMW) capable of sundering the players weapons. Making it impossible and pointless for them to keep any nice weapons.

2) So you don't consider Dragons, Massive damage saves, Harm, maxmized fireballs, Slay living, Destruction, Level drains, Stat drains etc.... sufficent to maintain tension and fear of death in your campaign? I find there is enough to worry about with my character surviving without having to wonder if I'm going to loose my weapon in every single battle.

3) Sure your cleric doesn't fear loosing his flail. He's got Flame Strike and a whole host of other spells to inflict damage with. At his level using his mace is probably largely irrelavant.

Can you say the same for the fighter types in the party? High level fighter types are already weak enough relative to the casters and now you want to weaken them further by eliminating the tools of their trade?

I sure hope you regularly destroy the mage's spell books and have minor alignment infractions prevent clerics from getting spells, if that's what you do to the fighters. It amounts to about the same thing.

 

[Vaxalon]

I certainly would have been pissed off if after all that, I'd gotten it hacked in half by a mook monster in the first battle.

It wouldn't have been a mook monster because it would have had to have access to a weapon of at least the same power.

And if *YOUR CHARACTER* would be pissed, that's great. You're roleplaying. If *YOU* would be pissed, then you have some boundary issues to work out.

 

[Vaxalon]

The other part of the problem, is that there is an infinite supply of mooks who can be granted +5 weapons (via GMW) capable of sundering the players weapons.

You're in a pretty weird game if the enemy has enough spellcasters to equip entire armies with GMW weapons. I don't think they can even do that in Forgotten Realms.

Personally, I find that most of the evil dudes don't care enough about their minions to be using GMW that much.

Rackhir, I think you're overstating your case considerably. Have you actually encountered a game like the one you describe? I don't think it happens.

 

[Martin Olarin]

Isn't part of the problem how easy it is to destroy some weapons? If I remember correctly a long sword has DR5 and 10 hp? Only 15 hp to take out a weapon? I prefer my games to be as true to life as possible and requiring only 15 hp to take out a sword suggests it would have been done a lot - I don't recall reading anywhere that this was a common tactic during the middle ages. For that matter I don't think attacking a man's wood hafted weapon was standard either and taking out wooden weapons is even easier. Even w/o the feat and taking an AOO, the attack a weapon option seems like a good option when fighting someone using an Ax.... I'm making this argument without any books at my disposal so forgive any glaring errors.

 

[Rackhir]

It wouldn't have been a mook monster because it would have had to have access to a weapon of at least the same power.

You are obviously unfamiliar with the spell Greater Magic Weapon (Wiz/Sorc/Clr Lv3), it grants an enhancement bonus of +1/per 3 caster levels for 1hr/lv (I don't have the page number, but it is in the Player's Handbook and the SRD). With it any moderately high level EBBG (12th- 15th lvl giving a +4 to +5 weapon) can give their flunkies a weapon capable of sundering basically any weapons that the PCs have. So he casts it and if extended it would last for say 30 hours. More than long enough to teleport the group of moderately powerful mooks (say -2 or -4 Party ECL) to go in there and try to destroy the party's weapons. Which is a considerably easier than trying to actually take down the characters and more effective at weakening them for the next wave.

And if *YOUR CHARACTER* would be pissed, that's great. You're roleplaying. If *YOU* would be pissed, then you have some boundary issues to work out.

Hmm, so you are saying that when you invest a considerable amount of real world time and effort into something and then have all the time and effort wasted when what you worked on is destroyed casually for little or no reason, you personally would not be upset?

Why should it matter if the effort invested resulted in a real world item or not. How about this, I'll come over to your house sometime and smash something you have worked hard on, I'm sure your perfect serenity and lack of concern for "things" would be unaffected.

Originally posted by Vaxalon
You're in a pretty weird game if the enemy has enough spellcasters to equip entire armies with GMW weapons. I don't think they can even do that in Forgotten Realms.

Personally, I find that most of the evil dudes don't care enough about their minions to be using GMW that much.

Rackhir, I think you're overstating your case considerably. Have you actually encountered a game like the one you describe? I don't think it happens.

The enemy doesn't need to equip their "army" with GMW, just enough flunkies to wipe out their weapons, which as I described above hardly requires a collection of mages that would exceed that found in even a relatively low power campaign.

If you run your BBEG's as fools then, yes that would be the case. If however you are out to sunder, every last weapon the players have as most of the previous posters have been advocating.

COME ON... the feat is in the PH. It's there to be used. On pcs and npcs alike. It might be fun to have a villain who likes to sunder the pcs' best items and teleport away, again and again, just to build him up as an unforgettable nemesis type. "Ooh, there he is again! Let's get him before he breaks my holy flail +3!"

Then it only makes sense. Try rereading most of the previous posts. They are the ones advocating campaigns, where the players have their weapons constantly destroyed (yes I am using a certain amount of hyperbolie. Do you believe that the previous posters have not?).

I certainly wouldn't want to run in a campaign where the DM's primary purpose seems to be giving the the PCs the shaft at every available oportunity and I have been in those kind of campaigns. I do not look back on them with fondness and I find it highly irritating when people advocate that sort of adversarial structure for a campaign. If you are 13 yrs old and have nothing better to do with your time that's one thing. I am long past that age and have better things to do with my time than run in a game with a GM who's just trying to punish the players and prevent them from accomplishing anything.

Killer GMs are not the solution for muchkin players.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Sunder is a great option for NPCs and PCs in adventures. It's the sure cure for an archer who thinks that a bow is a weapon to use five feet from melee. It's also the way to deal with characters who think that +1 Holy flaming frost shock, screaming, weapons of speed are good ideas. Finally, it's a good way to underscore that reliance upon a single weapon is a sacrifice--if you're focussed, specialized, improved criticalled, and a weapon master with a battle axe, how good are you without the battle axe?

Both as a DM and a player, I tend to use sunder, trip, disarm, bull rush, tumble, and bluff. If you don't do that, combat simply becomes a matter of I swing. I hit. 8 points of damage. He swings, he hits, 9 points of damage. How boring. It's much more fun if the bad guy tries to sunder your greatsword and in return, you bull rush him off the dock into the water. . . .

I think you are over reacting a bit. I do not advocate a GM costantly sundering player's prized posessions. I would only use sunder in a situation that called for it. In this case the easiest way to remove the threat was to sunder a weapon.

I certianly wouldn't be cruel enough to buff my villians for the main purpose of wrecking the PC's stuff.

A smart villian should use all resources availiable to him and this should include actions like sunder if the situation calls for it.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Damn. Quoted the wrong reply. Sorry elder- basilisk that was not meant for you. It was meant for rackhir.

Sorry

 

[Xarlen]

1) Actually, your Excalibur could easily be sundered through the use of GMW and that would only require a 12th level caster or an 8th level cleric with a pearl of power. That's part of the problem.

The other part of the problem, is that there is an infinite supply of mooks who can be granted +5 weapons (via GMW) capable of sundering the players weapons. Making it impossible and pointless for them to keep any nice weapons.

Ah, but in D&D, Escalibur isn't hard to come by. Oh? It broke? Well, my Wealth just dropped down. I should get enough treasure to buy me a new one/comission me a new one.

If this ISN'T the case, if Magical weapons are hard to come by, then plain and simple, DON'T BREAK IT.

If it is the case, if they Don't spend their heart and soul into that single weapon, and are just waiting to get a New one, then Bust it.

2) So you don't consider Dragons, Massive damage saves, Harm, maxmized fireballs, Slay living, Destruction, Level drains, Stat drains etc.... sufficent to maintain tension and fear of death in your campaign? I find there is enough to worry about with my character surviving without having to wonder if I'm going to loose my weapon in every single battle.

Again. When Dieing isn't feared, because the character can Pop back up via a simple spell, then No, I do not consider Threat of Death to be a reasonable tension and fear.

Of course, I'm speaking in General; Ressurection is VERY RARE IMC, and I've not killed a PC yet. But, my campaign isn't everyone's.

3) Sure your cleric doesn't fear loosing his flail. He's got Flame Strike and a whole host of other spells to inflict damage with. At his level using his mace is probably largely irrelavant.

Oddly enough, he doesn't use those spells.

Can you say the same for the fighter types in the party? High level fighter types are already weak enough relative to the casters and now you want to weaken them further by eliminating the tools of their trade?

I sure hope you regularly destroy the mage's spell books and have minor alignment infractions prevent clerics from getting spells, if that's what you do to the fighters. It amounts to about the same thing.

Well, I sure hope that you have orcs and other humanoids, as well as all sorts of intelligent creatures that don't use smart tactics. Like range, reach, hight, cover, concealment, and thus thus.

I have No qualms about Blinding a caster with a spell, Holding a fighter, dropping a Silence ontop of them, having their items Stolen (So far my players are Very paranoid hand have avoided most things), Entangled, Ambushed, Mucked up, and the like.

Frankly, the PCs have walked through a cakewalk, and I *AM* taking the kid gloves off.

And, is not it in Literature that Heros often are denyed their weapon, and still they must try to win the day with their other abilites?

Beowulf fighting Grendil with his bare hands, then having his sword and shield break in the fight with the Dragon. I'm sure Hercules lost his strenght once or twice, and was forced to overcome some foe with his wits. Happens to 007 every dang time.

I wonder what your PCs do when they can't hit something with their main weapon? Do they whine and cry, or do they Use A Backup? Do they even *have* a backup weapon?

Do you have a problem with Dispelling their buffing spells?

Villains are going to be smart. Take out what's the threat to you. Is that wizard Invisible and flying? Dispel him. Is he about to unload on you? Blind him. Kill him. *Stop* him. That fighter about to kill you with his Sword of Death? Then Disarm him, Trip him, or Sunder His Weapon. Especially if your BBEGs like to gloat, torture, and make the PCs suffer. Like Drow do.

What's the difference in the BBEG teleporting a bunch of Mooks to surprise the PCs when they're asleep and attacking them, and having the Mooks attack their weapons?

 

[AuraSeer]

What's the difference in the BBEG teleporting a bunch of Mooks to surprise the PCs when they're asleep and attacking them, and having the Mooks attack their weapons?

The difference is that in the former case, the party can take a few minutes to cast healing spells, and be good as new. Destroyed magic items are harder to replace.

(I'm not saying whether it's a good or bad thing, I'm just answering the question.)