Sunder -- The most useful useless feat

[Storm Raven]

Actually, we have, by mutual consensus, banned it.

Why? Because if someone spends the 2-3 feats necessary to do it, it becomes the attack of choice.

Gosh, if someone spends 2-3 feats on a tactic I'd expect it to become their attack of choice.

Go ahead with all your grapples and disarms, just give the Tumbler attacks on the way past...

Unless, of course, they have the appropriate feats, are using reach weapons (for the disarms and trips), or otherwise have the ability to avoid being attacked while using these tactics. PCs and NPCs facing tumbling sunderers do have combat related feats you know.

Oh, and if the Tumbler doesn't have Combat reflexes, he only gets one attack "on his way past". He may very well suck up two or three on the way.

And all that is based off the others saying that you can protect an Archer to prevent Sunder attempts on his Bow. I just listed a bunch of ways to bypass any "protection". YMMV

Yes, a bunch of ways that might succeed, and they might not. The resulting benefit from the tumble-sunder maneuver may not be worth the effort either. On the other hand, your position seems to be that they will always succeed. Which tells me that the people defending the archer are none too bright, since there are many ways to make life difficult for the tumbler to get to the archer/wizard/whatever is being protected.

 

[RaveN]

Anyone else had trouble with this feat? Any suggestions?

find a new player with an intelligence equal to that of the drow... then there won't be any argument.

besides your player can always just get the bow repaired after he's done pummeling the drow with his kung fu action grip.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

E-B : Who needs rogues? One rank in tumble is a non-exclusive skill, Two skill points and ANY character is an unstoppable juggernaut.

Anyone who wants to be effective with tumble that's who. I don't know what kind of a world you play in but most campaigns don't give bad guys multiple 18s. That means that chain shirt fighters types either don't do much damage (because of low strength)--in which case, even with improved sunder they're not much of a threat to good weapons. Atlternatively, they might have a good strength but be power attack bait. Either way, they won't last long against PC melee types.

As to "waltzing" through 4 ranks of protection with one cross class rank of tumble, I think that you misread the skill's usefulness. First, tumble can't be used in armor that gives good protection. So you're limited to the chain shirt fighter types with tumble. Second, one rank of tumble is not usually enough to avoid AoOs--so one trip, disarm, or sunder (with the AoO) and the bad guy just went from being an "Unstoppable tumbling juggernaught" to that fool on the ground without his weapon. (AKA Power attack +4 or the idiot standing in the middle of the party without his sword).

Tumble is a useful skill--quite possibly too useful and powerful but it's not immunity to AoOs for anyone other than rogues.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, we have, by mutual consensus, banned it.

Why? Because if someone spends the 2-3 feats necessary to do it, it becomes the attack of choice.

Nonsense. Even Improved Sunder only guarantees the "sufficient damage" prerequisite for making sunder a superior combat option. Nine times out of ten, it's more to the villains advantage to sunder a PC than to sunder a PC's weapon. (It gets more common as PCs advance to higher levels but then PCs can expect to have GMW and adamantium weapons if they worry about sunder).

Go ahead with all your grapples and disarms, just give the Tumbler attacks on the way past...

Assuming that the PCs:
A. Aren't using reach weapons
B. Haven't spent the feats to have more options in combat than attack, hit do damage or draw an AoO. With the number of feats high level fighters get, this is a very unreliable assumption indeed.