Sundering a Bow?

[PaulKemp]

All,

I'm uncertain how to adjudicate a sunder attempt on a bowman. The bow does not threaten, so the sunder attempt, even if attempted by someone without the Improved Sunder feat, does not result in an AoO. But the opposed roll mechanic strikes me as strange in the case of a bow. Should the bowman add to his opposed attack roll all modifiers that he has when firing the bow (Point blank shot, for example)? That doesn't make intuitive sense to me. Or should the bow, since it does not threaten, instead be treated as a carried object (requiring a to-hit roll against its AC rather than an opposed roll)? Or something else?

Help appreciated.

 

[Ferrix]

Regardless of whether it's a sunder attempt against a carried object or a weapon the defender still gets an Attack of Opportunity regardless of whether they threaten with the bow or not, although the AoO has to be a melee attack (unarmed strike could work fine here, armor spikes anyone?).

I would rule as the bow is a weapon he gets his normal attack bonus with it, although since it's an opposed role the point blank shot bonus wouldn't get figured in as that is only for ranged attacks.

I don't think making it easier to Sunder bows will make anyone want to ever play an archer in your game since it's already relatively easy to do considering their poor hardness/hit points.

 

[PaulKemp]

Regardless of whether it's a sunder attempt against a carried object or a weapon the defender still gets an Attack of Opportunity regardless of whether they threaten with the bow or not, although the AoO has to be a melee attack (unarmed strike could work fine here, armor spikes anyone?).

I would rule as the bow is a weapon he gets his normal attack bonus with it, although since it's an opposed role the point blank shot bonus wouldn't get figured in as that is only for ranged attacks.

I don't think making it easier to Sunder bows will make anyone want to ever play an archer in your game since it's already relatively easy to do considering their poor hardness/hit points.

I'm not trying to make it easier, I'm trying to do it the right way.

On the AoO question: an unarmed strike doesn't threaten either, unless you're a monk, so no AoO there. Agreed that if the archer had spiked gauntlets, he'd get the AoO. I'd even allow the archer to swing his bow as an improvised weapon, if he wanted. I'm not particularly concerned about the AoO issue. Even if it's successful, it does not thwart the Sunder attempt.

The issue is simply which modifiers apply to the opposed roll for determining the outcome of the sunder. Agreed that the archer gets his BAB. But should he also get his dexterity bonus, or strength instead? The bonus from Weapon Focus? I guess that's the question I'm asking and the text from the PHB is unhelpful.

 

[Jack]

good question, occurred in my game last week

in 3.0 there was a rule that if you had a carried item in your hands it got a +5 to its AC if someone tried to sunder it. That got dropped in 3.5 which suggests to me that anything in your hands, as opposed to being worn or carried, should get the benefit of an opposed attack role to determine whether it is struck by a sunder attempt.

the trickier q is what sort of opposed attack roll and what modifiers if any. For example, opposed melee attack rolls vs ranged attck roll for the bow vs melee attack role for the sunderer. if its opposed melee attack rolls should the bow wielder take a -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon. should the bow wielder get a +4 bonus for a two handed waapon. thse questions haven''t AFAIK been answered for 3.5

my opinion is to say opposed melee attack rolls (but if the wielder has weapon finnesse they can use it). and the improvised weapon and wielding two handed weapon modifiers cancel out.

 

[Ferrix]

Well doing it the right depends on your interpretation of what is the right way, to me it'd be following the guidelines for Sunder opposed rolls as written since that makes it simple. Thus since the bow is considered a weapon, it acts in all manners like a weapon would in a sunder attempt. If they had meant to differentiate between the two types (ranged & melee) they would have when they written the sunder rules.

Could you quote the text which says you don't threaten with an unarmed strike (just so I can read it)? Or give a page number from the PHB.

Step 2 Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.

Respective weapons would mean to me via their normal type of attack rolls. The archer would get all of his normal bonuses to attack (dexterity, weapon focus, etc.) to defend his bow from the sunder attempt. I gave a suggestion that since Point Blank Shot applies only to ranged attacks and not all attack rolls period it wouldn't apply to the opposed roll for a sunder attempt.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Could you quote the text which says you don't threaten with an unarmed strike (just so I can read it)? Or give a page number from the PHB.

Sure!

IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL]
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.
In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

 

[Seeten]

Just as a point of interest, breaking a bow IS an easy thing to do, particularly if you have a big sword or hammer. This is realistic. If you want an indestructible bow, I suggest getting a magic one that is made of something crazy with a big + bonus. I understand each plus adds 10 hp.

 

[PaulKemp]

my opinion is to say opposed melee attack rolls (but if the wielder has weapon finnesse they can use it). and the improvised weapon and wielding two handed weapon modifiers cancel out.

This is my tentative ruling too. I had just hoped that there was some errata or perhaps a Rules of the Game mention that deals with this issue.

 

[PaulKemp]

Respective weapons would mean to me via their normal type of attack rolls. The archer would get all of his normal bonuses to attack (dexterity, weapon focus, etc.) to defend his bow from the sunder attempt. I gave a suggestion that since Point Blank Shot applies only to ranged attacks and not all attack rolls period it wouldn't apply to the opposed roll for a sunder attempt.

Ferrix,

I agree that the text does not distinguish between ranged and melee attack rolls. But I find that exceedingly counterintutive in the context of sundering a bow. You do too, it seems, but to a lesser degree. Hence, you're willing to exclude the bonus from point blank shot because that applies only to ranged attacks. Of course, that same logic would militate for using strength as the modifier to the attack roll rather than dexterity (since, absent the Weapon Finesse feat, dexterity modifiers apply only to ranged attacks too), and for excluding the magical bonus of the bow (if it has one; since it would apply only to bowshots, not swinging the weapon like a club), etc.

 

[Seeten]

I disagree. If the bow is magical, I'd rule its magical if swung as a club, also.

Frex, if you swing a 2h sword as a non-lethal weapon using flat of the blade, you get your magical + to hit.