D&D 5E Super Deadly 5E?

[the Jester]

I know a lot of players enjoy the appeal of 5E's high survivability rate, and much of it depends greatly on the DM's style, etc. but...

I find that, especially after tier 1, character deaths are few and far between, almost unheard of, and of course when they do occur recovering from them in many 5E games seems pretty simple with spells like Revivify. Even stabilizing is not that hard (the given mechanic is about 60% survival IIRC, even without aid). Exceeding your maximum HP after lower levels seems almost impossible in most situations for the insta-kill mechanic.

I've considered ways to make the game feel more deadly, such as imposing a level of exhaustion when you go to 0 HP, or giving a level for each failed death save (so even if you recover, you will need strong magic or some long rests to remove the penalties).

I was curious if anyone plays in a style of with house-rules that makes 5E more lethal to them?

Combat will near full HP should not be a terrifying experience (for the player anyway), but as HP dwindle and that 0 approaches, the player should understand their character is in danger and consider their options.

All it takes to keep the pcs scared is for one monster to make one attack against a downed pc and inflict two automatic failed death saves. All it takes to keep the lethality level high is for this to be something that monsters and npcs are willing to do on a semi-regular basis; they will kill pcs that way.

 

[Uller]

So, when you DM do you actually do this or are you just offering it as a non-solution?

I have the monsters react realistically based on their nature, goals and what they know.

Usually monsters are fighting to simply survive the onslaught of murder hobos. So they will attack a PC until it is no longer a clear threat and then will attack the next threat they believe they can harm. I make no assumptions that parties of adventurers optimized for fighting are a common thing in the world so most monsters won't know that killing the cleric first is important.

But other monsters have different motivations. For instance, my players have come to understand that undead are not interested in winning fights. They mostly want to feed on the living. Which means they are driven to attack dying PCs. Maybe not skeletons, but from zombies on up they desire delivering the killing blow above all else. Higher undead like vampires prefer to play with their food as long as possible but most are content just to kill.

Predators will attack the most vulnerable character or animal and drag their prey away.

Guards might fight to subdue or frighten enemies away.

And so forth.

So I generally do not double tap PCs. When I do I usually explain why.

For example...in Ravenloft (SPOILERS!) my party was fighting the animated weapons on the bridge by the tower. They had retreated outside. Five vampire spawn that had been trailing the party joined the fight. Two vampires were knocked from the bridge. The monk leaped off to try to finish them off but between the two of them, they scored two crits, knocking the monk out. The next turn they were too far from the fight to engage a new PC. And they ARE vampires after all. I figured each would want to feed before the other could so...the monk died as two vampire spawn tore her apart. I explained why to the player. She was fine. The paladin and revivify amd was fast going down too. Made for an interesting fight as the party tried to keep him alive so they could save the monk. He lived, she was revivified and my players still remember that fight so all is good.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It just needs a decent number of undead per PC - rem the incorporeals can fly, so you can easily get 9+ Shadows etc on one PC.
I saw a Wiz-5 elf princess PC insta-killed by a single hit from a Wraith that took her hp straight from full to 0 hp. She became his spectre-bride.

LOL outnumbering PCs 9-1 depends a lot on level, etc.

So, seeing a (barely) tier 2 wizard with relatively low HP character killed on a crit by an equal CR monster isn't something that happens routinely at all. Take away just about any of the contributing factors (wizard = low HP, critical hit, and max hp drain) and the hit would have maybe dropped the character, but not killed them.

Anyway, I am not saying using such undead aren't a good idea, I just have to look into them more and see what is possible in the scope of a non-intended TPK encounter.

 

[S'mon]

LOL outnumbering PCs 9-1 depends a lot on level, etc.

So, seeing a (barely) tier 2 wizard with relatively low HP character killed on a crit by an equal CR monster isn't something that happens routinely at all. Take away just about any of the contributing factors (wizard = low HP, critical hit, and max hp drain) and the hit would have maybe dropped the character, but not killed them.

Anyway, I am not saying using such undead aren't a good idea, I just have to look into them more and see what is possible in the scope of a non-intended TPK encounter.

Wraith can reduce max hp tally by damage done, death if max hp goes to 0. I think the Wiz-5 had 22 hp and it did 22 damage & she failed CON save, so insta-kill. 22 is 1 point over its average damage! Roll20
It wasn't a TPK; after the wraith raised her as a Spectre and the Cleric failed to turn it, the two remaining PCs fled in terror.

I saw another PC perma-killed by a few Shadows draining his STR to 0. Shadow is only Challenge 1/2 - Shadow - so vs a high level group you can 'legally' use a pretty ridiculous number.

For that matter the Banshee is CR 4 and can insta-kill Banshee
And of course there's the CR 2 intellect devourer... https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/MM_IntellectDevourer.pdf

 

[Oofta]

Wraith can reduce max hp tally by damage done, death if max hp goes to 0. I think the Wiz-5 had 22 hp and it did 22 damage & she failed CON save, so insta-kill. 22 is 1 point over its average damage! Roll20
It wasn't a TPK; after the wraith raised her as a Spectre and the Cleric failed to turn it, the two remaining PCs fled in terror.

I saw another PC perma-killed by a few Shadows draining his STR to 0. Shadow is only Challenge 1/2 - Shadow - so vs a high level group you can 'legally' use a pretty ridiculous number.

For that matter the Banshee is CR 4 and can insta-kill Banshee
And of course there's the CR 2 intellect devourer... https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/MM_IntellectDevourer.pdf

Yeah, I just about took out my wife's rogue with a single hit with a wraith in our last game when I crit and came close to maxing out the extra damage.

But there are a lot of monsters that can kill a handful of PCs or even wipe out a party while still not being all that high of a CR. Beholder zombies and flameskulls come to mind in addition to the ones you mention.

 

[Retreater]

There's just too many HP (monsters and PCs alike) for there to feel like there's any real tension. Then healing happens so quick that a heal as a bonus action instantly restores a downed ally. The party is 6th level, and I can't challenge them - even with monsters way above their CR and a module designed for a higher level. I will try some house rules for my next campaign or (more likely) just find another system.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There's just too many HP (monsters and PCs alike) for there to feel like there's any real tension. Then healing happens so quick that a heal as a bonus action instantly restores a downed ally. The party is 6th level, and I can't challenge them - even with monsters way above their CR and a module designed for a higher level. I will try some house rules for my next campaign or (more likely) just find another system.

What are you doing that isn't working, because I've kept parties of 7th and 8th level hopping and feeling threatened and challenged. It is possible to do, with minimal homebrewing

 

[Retreater]

What are you doing that isn't working, because I've kept parties of 7th and 8th level hopping and feeling threatened and challenged. It is possible to do, with minimal homebrewing

I think the party is too large. I have 6 players including 2 paladins with high AC, an insane AC monk who can shut down anything with a grapple, a cleric, a ranger with healing spirits, and a wizard who focuses on evocation magic. The only time they've had any difficulty is when they split party and go totally reckless. The amount of healing available is ridiculous. There are 4 healers in a party of six. And this wasn't even done on purpose - it's just inherent in the design of the system.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think the party is too large. I have 6 players including 2 paladins with high AC, an insane AC monk who can shut down anything with a grapple, a cleric, a ranger with healing spirits, and a wizard who focuses on evocation magic. The only time they've had any difficulty is when they split party and go totally reckless. The amount of healing available is ridiculous. There are 4 healers in a party of six. And this wasn't even done on purpose - it's just inherent in the design of the system.

How often are they resting? 5E is a lot about attrition of features, including healing. Also, you only have one character that is not a caster in some form, so using mobs will help with targeting individuals and breaking concentration.

 

[Retreater]

How often are they resting? 5E is a lot about attrition of features, including healing. Also, you only have one character that is not a caster in some form, so using mobs will help with targeting individuals and breaking concentration.

They haven't taken a long rest in the current dungeon yet, but a few short rests (and I do roll for random encounters). They can typically do 6 or so battles between long rests.