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Super hero tone and changing times

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I think a lot of people would argue that Tim Burton didn't really 'get' Batman, or even comics, either. He certain said some pretty unflattering things about the genre at the time.

So, it isn't like Burton's the only culprit here.

In Batman Begins, Bruce is trained by the League of Shadows. The final step in training is killing someone. He refuses... and then sets the place on fire and it explodes, presumably killing everyone inside. He does a number of lethal things in Dawn of Justice.

There's several times he kills back in the old days in Detective comics. He kills someone in Batman #1 - very first issue of his title.
 
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ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
I don't really read superhero comics now, but wasn't there quite recently a long series of Captain America, where he was actually a Hydra-agent, and had always been such. Granted it was due to reality having been rewritten through the Tessaract if I understood it correctly.
Yes. and I've NEVER understood the outrage behind this from comic fans.

As someone who was actually reading the Cap book at the time as well as the book where he gets his youth and super serum back (Avengers: Standoff) there was no way that a longtime reader of Captain America didn't know that there wouldn't be ramifications/consequences. The reveal that Red Skull had used the Cosmic Cube to alter reality thus giving us Hydra Cap wasn't a surprise.

It's literally something the Red Skull has been working toward in one form or another every time he's gotten or almost gotten his hands on the Cosmic Cube. The last time the fight over the cube with the Red Skull resulted in Steve freeing Bucky/Winter Soldier from his mind control and restoring his memories.

The time before that (I think in the Waid/ Garney run) the Skull had trapped Steve inside the cube in a version of the 1940's where he was still fighting in WWII. Steve broke free "destroyed" the cube and the Skull. Ironically the situation that starts that arc has to do with Steve being revived by the Red Skull after the Super Serum all but kills Steve.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Almost all of these stories are familiar and just variations or followups on things that have come before. I welcome them. But the outrage to me is a little disturbing. Especially if you've been reading Captain America for more than just that particular run.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I think you do a variety of tones and let the fans decide via their wallets. Whatever's popular/viable will float to the top. Pretty boring if everything's light and fluffy or dark and grim.
 


ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
So, it isn't; like Burton's the only culprit here.

In Batman Begins, Bruce is trained by the League of Shadows. The final step in training is killing someone. He refuses... and then sets the place on fire and it explodes, presumably killing everyone inside. He does a number of lethal things in Dawn of Justice.

There's several times he kills back in the old days in Detective comics. He kills someone in Batman #1 - very first issue of his title.
Hell at the end of BATMAN BEGINS there's the stupidity of what he does to Ras Al Ghul. He leaves him incapacitated and beaten on the runaway train. "I'm not going to kill you, but I'm not going to save you" ?!?

By actively NOT saving him, YOU ARE killing him.

All sorts of mental gymnastics to try and get around the fact that Batman is a murderer in that movie.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The one who depowers Zod, then when his victim has no powers, he tortures him by slowly crushing his hand, then he coldly executes him, before winking at Lois Lane?

Interesting way of putting it. Completely devoid of context, anything can sound amoral or evil.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Hell at the end of BATMAN BEGINS there's the stupidity of what he does to Ras Al Ghul. He leaves him incapacitated and beaten on the runaway train. "I'm not going to kill you, but I'm not going to save you" ?!?

By actively NOT saving him, YOU ARE killing him.

All sorts of mental gymnastics to try and get around the fact that Batman is a murderer in that movie.
That’s just a weird encounter, as Batman did nothing. If he hadn’t gotten on that train, Gordon would still have made it crash and Ra’s would still have died.

All Bats did was jump on the train, punch Ra’s a few times, then jump off again. Changing nothing at all!
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I think our attachment to a given tone is based on which tone we've dealt with for the longest.

I think it's purely subjective. Just finished The Wire rewatch that show is so dark. What genre it is matters what mood you're in etc.

Before Christmas I dragged my wife to the movies the see A Christmas Present from Bob which was a sad but ultimately happy story about a cat.

Not a massive superhero fan I enjoy the good movies but don't automatically think they're great or rush out to see the genre. Superman doesn't really do it for me to red white and blue perhaps.

Batman's cool enjoyed Dark Knight and the 1989 one, Wonder Women, Aquaman and GotG were the others I liked a lot.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
All Bats did was jump on the train, punch Ra’s a few times, then jump off again. Changing nothing at all!

You are absolutely sure that Ra's couldn't have done something to save himself, if not occupied fighting Bats? Because I'm not.
 





On the gripping hand, it is probably more necessary to have in this day and age.

Sure, I agree. I wasn’t saying that they shouldn’t try, just that it can br tricky to pull off, and that Zack Snyder isn’t exactly equipped for the task.

So, there are times when embracing your cheese and owning it and not being scared of it is the way to get past it being cheesey. Kind of like... disco music. It is the Will Smith, "I make this look good," moment. It is Zombieland. It is Shazam.

Sure. Shazam is a great example, but I think the nature of it makes it a little easier because there’s less baggage for the character assumed by the audience, and you have the “kid as an adult” angle to lean on a la “Big” and similar movies.

The risk is that for every movie that has just the right balance of cheese, there are a bunch that have too much or too little, and the end result is just off.
 

payn

Adventurer
I dont like attempts to make the Punisher a good dude only kills the worst of the worst. I like Punisher as an anti-hero, but my favorite part of Punisher is when he lands in Daredevil, Spidey, and nightcrawler comics. The contrast works great for hero stories. The Punisher is not quite the usual villian, but it aint no saint either. The line from the DareDevil Marvel Netflix series was awesome, "You're one bad day away from being me".
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
However, George didn't kill anyone. Oh, sure, occasionally some idiot henchman got hit by his own ricocheting bullet...
... and Superman is faster than a speeding bullet. So... could he have stopped it, if he wanted to? :p
 
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ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
I dont like attempts to make the Punisher a good dude only kills the worst of the worst. I like Punisher as an anti-hero, but my favorite part of Punisher is when he lands in Daredevil, Spidey, and nightcrawler comics. The contrast works great for hero stories. The Punisher is not quite the usual villian, but it aint no saint either. The line from the DareDevil Marvel Netflix series was awesome, "You're one bad day away from being me".
I'm not a big Frank Castle fan. I will agree that I like some of his appearances in Daredevil, specifically when he shows up early in Brubaker's Daredevil run. He gets himself thrown into Rikers when he sees that Matt, the Kingpin AND Bullseye are all there at the same time. Frank realizes that because the Kingpin has just had someone close to Matt killed that Matt MIGHT be pushed to the brink and kill the Kingpin.

When he gets inside, while he doesn't interfere in Matt business with the Kingpin and Bullsye he does chide him about possibly crossing that line. After Matt choses not to kill Fisk or Bullseye, Frank tells Matt later on in the run:

"You're hurtin' a lot right now, Murdock, with good reason. But you don't want to be ME. You needed to remember that..."
 




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