Super hero tone and changing times

[Umbran]

On the other hand....that’s really tough to pull off in this day and age.

On the gripping hand, it is probably more necessary to have in this day and age.

I’d say the same of the Fantastic Four at Marvel. You need to be able to do optimistic and awe-inspiring without being cheesy.

So, there are times when embracing your cheese and owning it and not being scared of it is the way to get past it being cheesey. Kind of like... disco music. It is the Will Smith, "I make this look good," moment. It is Zombieland. It is Shazam.

 

[Umbran]

And, as I recall, it caused huge outrage.

Yes. Biggest misstep I can recall from recent comics.

 

[billd91]

And, as I recall, it caused huge outrage.

Well, they teased it very badly. "oh, this is absolutely real." as opposed to either an alt-universe story or a mystery for the reader to watch unfolding. So, of course doing that to their prime upstanding hero was going to ruffle feathers. They invited outrage.

 

[billd91]

He's killed in most movies, I think. Even back in Batman 1989 he blew up a chemical plant full of bad guys.

I think a lot of people would argue that Tim Burton didn't really 'get' Batman, or even comics, either. He certain said some pretty unflattering things about the genre at the time.

I think there's one thing that has been pretty consistent over the years and in comic adaptation after comic adaptation - before the MCU, at least. Movie makers aren't thinking of the same story conventions as comic book writers. They're thinking more along the lines of movie heroism and morality based on what will sell with the movie-going public - a public at least partly shaped by westerns and gun-laden, violent fantasies like Death Wish and Die Hard. Comic morality, particularly with long-standing IP like Batman and Superman, was at least partly shaped by the Comics Code. That eroded with the Bronze and Iron Ages in the comics, but it makes up a substantial aspect of heroes that dominated the Silver Age (and who still dominate the Silver Screen Age).

 

[Ryujin]

Well, they teased it very badly. "oh, this is absolutely real." as opposed to either an alt-universe story or a mystery for the reader to watch unfolding. So, of course doing that to their prime upstanding hero was going to ruffle feathers. They invited outrage.

I would go a little further. They lied. They created outrage, then seemed confused that it existed.

 

[trappedslider]

Batman murders people now?

Is that true? That would indicate whoever is writing Batman never truly understood who he was, what he stood for, or why he existed in the first place.

15 Times Batman Has Killed People

Everyone knows that Batman has one line that he will never cross. He won't ever kill a person... well, except for these 15 times he did.

screenrant.com

Batman used a gun in the very beginning Every Time Batman Used A Gun (& Why)

Sups has even killed people

I think most folks tend to forget all this due to the cheesiness that was the time during the comics code. I mean, thanks to that age we did get super dickery Superdickery - Be sure to catch Avengers 4: The Unsnappening

 

[Tonguez]

I think that in this day and age, ESPECIALLY in this day and age we need some actual HOPE and WONDER..

With comic books fans and superhero fans in particular there's a blood lust and need for darkness that's a little disturbing. When those stories are told in isolation like in a WATCHMEN or THE DARK KNIGHT REURNS that makes the tone something special. Especially when it has something to say about the characters themselves. But when it ALL has to play as dark? It's just Nihilism for Nihilism's sake and there's way too much of that in the real world...

Theres a quote from CWs Supergirl that goes something like “People dont fear Superman for what he can do, they fear what he might become” and I think that becomes a fundamental to understanding the symbolism of Superman and also in contrast Batman And I do think it is about HOPE and WONDER.

It actually doesnt matter if either of them have a justifiable kill within the context of a good story as long as Superman is still the symbol of Justice, Truth and HOPE - but not as a self questioning, angst driven Messiah, thats a failure, Superman must be the Boy Scout - the best qualities of humanity - because anything else makes him an Alien Invader.

Equally Batman is the symbol of mortal resistance, he can be grim and gritty because despite his many foibles he has the Indomitable Will to Fight against ALL threats and turn the Darkness that threatens society back on itself.

The problem with certain modern interpretations is that they have turned Superman into Batman...

 

[ShinHakkaider]

15 Times Batman Has Killed People

Everyone knows that Batman has one line that he will never cross. He won't ever kill a person... well, except for these 15 times he did.

screenrant.com

Batman used a gun in the very beginning Every Time Batman Used A Gun (& Why)

Sups has even killed people

I think most folks tend to forget all this due to the cheesiness that was the time during the comics code. I mean, thanks to that age we did get super dickery Superdickery - Be sure to catch Avengers 4: The Unsnappening

I havent forgotten that the very early iteration of Batman killed people.
But the iteration of the character that has been around the longest in comics and even on TV in animated form DOES NOT KILL.

The story in Superman #22 or #23 where Superman executes that Phantom Zone villains is a complicated affair. They had literally murdered everyone in that universes earth and threatened to get to Superman's earth and do the same. It was just blind luck that he's been knocked into where the vault where the kryptonite was that affects the P Zone villains but not him.

He used (Gold Kryptonite???) to strip them of their powers. It was at that point they threatened him and his world. He couldn't risk the chance that they'd get their powers back and find a way to his earth. Three fully sociopathic, superman level power villains were to much to risk. So he executed them using the Green Kryptonite.

But here's the thing, the guilt and ramification of that action took its toll on Kal-El for over a year of stories afterwards. If there was any people that needed killing it was those three and Superman was STILL broken over it. and now it's been established in the comics AND in the animated series that Superman WILL kill if the threat is big enough. You wanna know who tries to stop him each and every time that possibility occurs?

BATMAN.

To me? Those stories are a lot more interesting and humanizing.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Theres a quote from CWs Supergirl that goes something like “People dont fear Superman for what he can do, they fear what he might become” and I think that becomes a fundamental to understand the symbolism of Superman and also in contrast Batman And I do think it is about HOPE and WONDER.

It actually doesnt matter if either of them have a justifiable kill within the context of a good story as long as Superman is still the symbol of Justice, Truth and HOPE - but not as a self questioning, angst driven Messiah, thats a failure, Superman must be the Boy Scout - the best qualities of humanity - because anything else makes him an Alien Invader.

Equally Batman is the symbol of mortal resistance, he can be grim and gritty because despite his many foibles he has the Indomitable Will to Fight against ALl threats and turn to the Darkness that threatens society back on itself.

The problem with certain modern interpretations is that they have turned Superman into Batman...

Reeves Superman

Points Up

THIS. ALL OF THIS.

 

[Morrus]

Reeves Superman

The one who depowers Zod, then when his victim has no powers, he tortures him by slowly crushing his hand, then he coldly executes him, before winking at Lois Lane?