Super hero tone and changing times

[Umbran]

I think a lot of people would argue that Tim Burton didn't really 'get' Batman, or even comics, either. He certain said some pretty unflattering things about the genre at the time.

So, it isn't like Burton's the only culprit here.

In Batman Begins, Bruce is trained by the League of Shadows. The final step in training is killing someone. He refuses... and then sets the place on fire and it explodes, presumably killing everyone inside. He does a number of lethal things in Dawn of Justice.

There's several times he kills back in the old days in Detective comics. He kills someone in Batman #1 - very first issue of his title.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I don't really read superhero comics now, but wasn't there quite recently a long series of Captain America, where he was actually a Hydra-agent, and had always been such. Granted it was due to reality having been rewritten through the Tessaract if I understood it correctly.

Yes. and I've NEVER understood the outrage behind this from comic fans.

As someone who was actually reading the Cap book at the time as well as the book where he gets his youth and super serum back (Avengers: Standoff) there was no way that a longtime reader of Captain America didn't know that there wouldn't be ramifications/consequences. The reveal that Red Skull had used the Cosmic Cube to alter reality thus giving us Hydra Cap wasn't a surprise.

It's literally something the Red Skull has been working toward in one form or another every time he's gotten or almost gotten his hands on the Cosmic Cube. The last time the fight over the cube with the Red Skull resulted in Steve freeing Bucky/Winter Soldier from his mind control and restoring his memories.

The time before that (I think in the Waid/ Garney run) the Skull had trapped Steve inside the cube in a version of the 1940's where he was still fighting in WWII. Steve broke free "destroyed" the cube and the Skull. Ironically the situation that starts that arc has to do with Steve being revived by the Red Skull after the Super Serum all but kills Steve.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Almost all of these stories are familiar and just variations or followups on things that have come before. I welcome them. But the outrage to me is a little disturbing. Especially if you've been reading Captain America for more than just that particular run.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think you do a variety of tones and let the fans decide via their wallets. Whatever's popular/viable will float to the top. Pretty boring if everything's light and fluffy or dark and grim.

 

[trappedslider]

I think our attachment to a given tone is based on which tone we've dealt with for the longest.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

So, it isn't; like Burton's the only culprit here.

In Batman Begins, Bruce is trained by the League of Shadows. The final step in training is killing someone. He refuses... and then sets the place on fire and it explodes, presumably killing everyone inside. He does a number of lethal things in Dawn of Justice.

There's several times he kills back in the old days in Detective comics. He kills someone in Batman #1 - very first issue of his title.

Hell at the end of BATMAN BEGINS there's the stupidity of what he does to Ras Al Ghul. He leaves him incapacitated and beaten on the runaway train. "I'm not going to kill you, but I'm not going to save you" ?!?

By actively NOT saving him, YOU ARE killing him.

All sorts of mental gymnastics to try and get around the fact that Batman is a murderer in that movie.

 

[Umbran]

The one who depowers Zod, then when his victim has no powers, he tortures him by slowly crushing his hand, then he coldly executes him, before winking at Lois Lane?

Interesting way of putting it. Completely devoid of context, anything can sound amoral or evil.

 

[Morrus]

Hell at the end of BATMAN BEGINS there's the stupidity of what he does to Ras Al Ghul. He leaves him incapacitated and beaten on the runaway train. "I'm not going to kill you, but I'm not going to save you" ?!?

By actively NOT saving him, YOU ARE killing him.

All sorts of mental gymnastics to try and get around the fact that Batman is a murderer in that movie.

That’s just a weird encounter, as Batman did nothing. If he hadn’t gotten on that train, Gordon would still have made it crash and Ra’s would still have died.

All Bats did was jump on the train, punch Ra’s a few times, then jump off again. Changing nothing at all!

 

[Zardnaar]

I think our attachment to a given tone is based on which tone we've dealt with for the longest.

I think it's purely subjective. Just finished The Wire rewatch that show is so dark. What genre it is matters what mood you're in etc.

Before Christmas I dragged my wife to the movies the see A Christmas Present from Bob which was a sad but ultimately happy story about a cat.

Not a massive superhero fan I enjoy the good movies but don't automatically think they're great or rush out to see the genre. Superman doesn't really do it for me to red white and blue perhaps.

Batman's cool enjoyed Dark Knight and the 1989 one, Wonder Women, Aquaman and GotG were the others I liked a lot.

 

[Umbran]

All Bats did was jump on the train, punch Ra’s a few times, then jump off again. Changing nothing at all!

You are absolutely sure that Ra's couldn't have done something to save himself, if not occupied fighting Bats? Because I'm not.

 

[Morrus]

You are absolutely sure that Ra's couldn't have done something to save himself, if not occupied fighting Bats? Because I'm not.

I suppose, maybe.