Superhero systems?

[Great Umbrage]

Seems like we're stuck in an impasse with people pimping their pet systems.

Really, though, I think it comes down to playing style. While I agree that, to a certain extent, being able to find a rule for any conceivable superpower and to define it is a bonus, the degree to which a bulky, complex system will bog down play must be balanced in comparison to the benefits. Moreover, I do not feel that this necessarily captures the feel of superhero comics, wherein continuity is a foreign concept, and writers frequently take great liberties in deviating from established canon.

I've been disappointed with most of the systems out there, even with a lot of the new ones published in non-print form, though I will admit that many of them have a few good ideas. I'm not particularly partial to either class-level or skill-based systems, though in truth, class-level systems better capture the flavor of superheroes, whose creation are based off of archetypes (how many Superman-clones are out there? I can name at least 10 off the top of my head), but skill-based systems offer more flexibility and better capture real life.

It's a trade-off, to be sure.

 

[Jhamin]

The main problem I have with Hero, when you use it for anything other than superheroes, is equipment.

In a superhero game, it makes sense that people should pay their hard earned points for cool gizmos.

In a fantasy setting, though, it breaks down. A warrior picks up a magic sword, and suddenly he owes points? Or even if he doesn't, then it's unfair to the wizards. How do you deal with a cloak of invisibility?

In D&D and GURPS, you pay some money and/or kill some monsters, and bang, you have a magic item. A wizard can write a spell down in his book (D&D), or spend a couple of character points to learn a spell as a skill (GURPS).

Hero? Mr. Wizard has to plop down a huge number of character points to even get a basic spell!

And if you do it though power pools, then they're obscenely powerful.

>>SNIP<<

GURPS and D&D are much better for portraying actual people and worlds, without everything having to be balanced through a point cost. Heck, I can't even buy a plot of real estate in hero without having to buy a 'base'.

This isn't exactly correct. Pages 12-13 discuss heroic vs. superheroic games in Hero system. If you are playing in a superheroic game everything that is useful to you as a superhero costs points. Batman paid points for the Batcave. It comes in really handy and Batman with the Cave is much more dangerous than Batman without the cave, that should be a part of his character sheet. Iron Man didn't pay points for his house in Florida because that doesn't really help him in a superheroic game.

In a heroic game you never pay points for equipment, real-estate, or other such things. You buy them with money. Hero5 actually warns against trying to come up with stats for every little thing and making characters pay for them. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

The fantasy warrior doesn't pay for his sword, unless it is something that is effective far outside the realm of what a typical sword would be in that game. If magical swords are common, then you don't pay. If it is the only one in the world and the fact that you have it is what makes you cool, then you do pay. Given Hero system logic a flaming sword in a typical D&D style fantasy game does not cost points, but the Hand of Vecna does, and that's a GM call. If having the Hand is part of your character it costs points, if it is an item that anybody can pick up & use then it is a piece of equipment and is free.

And I believe that an earlier poster is correct when he says this is degenerating into everybody pimping their favorite system....

 

[mmadsen]

I want things to advance a little more quickly than that, so I'm pretty much stuck in levelling systems. (Note: if you start giving out 10 XP/session, you start picking up the pace a bit, but then you might as well just be using a level-based system.)

What's the difference between gaining one big level after a couple adventures and gaining lots of little character points all along the way? The difference isn't in the rate of advancement -- they can easily be the same -- but in whether advancement comes by occasional leaps or regular steps.

If you really like levels, you can easily save up experience into 10-point levels, and spend it all at once. Or, as GM, you can save up experience for your players and give it out to them in 10-points chunks.

Really though, since most powers come in 5-point increments, those are the "levels" of the game -- going from a 10d6 to an 11d6 EB.

 

[Teflon Billy]

...Seriosly, since d20 come out I've played and DMed really lots of different concepts, at least as different as I could do in Hero system. ..

Umm...ok.

 

[mmadsen]

Creating a unique prestige class for your character (or having your DM make you one) isn't any harder than putting together a pont based character in Hero or Gurps.

Except that there are no rules for creating a unique prestige class, and there are very clear rules for making a point-based character in Hero or GURPS.

Anyway, the difference between D&D and Hero or GURPS isn't just class-level vs. points; it's the level of detail. Imagine Hero or GURPS reduced to just D&D's stats, with point-costs for the six main Abilities, BAB, Hit Points, Fort, Ref, Will, Skills (at D&D's level of abstraction), and Feats.

 

[Cedric]

My only real issue with Champions, like other non-levelling systems, is that play is to static. Sure, you get an experience point or 3 after an adventure, but your hero is built on 250 giving you a little less than 1% improvement from your baseline character. I want things to advance a little more quickly than that, so I'm pretty much stuck in levelling systems. (Note: if you start giving out 10 XP/session, you start picking up the pace a bit, but then you might as well just be using a level-based system.)

If you build your character correctly those 2-4 experience points you get per game session can make a huge difference. For instance, if you have a multi-power, you can add other powers to it usually for anywhere from 1-10 points.

These inexpensive additions can add whole new dimensions to your character.

Furthermore, I've had several Champions characters that ended their "career" having gained close to or over 100 experience points...which in Champions is a HUGE difference, since your character starts out much more powerful then a 1st level D&D character.

 

[mmadsen]

If you build your character correctly those 2-4 experience points you get per game session can make a huge difference. For instance, if you have a multi-power, you can add other powers to it usually for anywhere from 1-10 points.

I'm not sure that's a good thing. The notion of a multipower has some place in the game -- obviously having two different kinds of energy blast should not cost as much as one big one of twice the power -- but it's way overdone and overcomplicated in Hero. When a hero's typically built on 250 points, but a couple points adds a whole new power, something's a bit off.

Edit: Forgot the not...

 

[Victim]

Generally, powers in a multipower are often just variations on each other. For example, buying area or armor piercing versions of a main attack power should only be only a minor step, and with a MP, it is.

And now characters are typically built on 350 points.

 

[mmadsen]

Generally, powers in a multipower are often just variations on each other.

But they're not required to be.

For example, buying area or armor piercing versions of a main attack power should only be only a minor step, and with a MP, it is.

With a multipower, just about any new power can be added as a trivial step. The price break is huge, and it's not a function of how "derived" the new power is.

And now characters are typically built on 350 points.

Right, but that only exacerbates the issue. A couple points is an even smaller fraction of 350 points than of 250 points.

 

[Cedric]

A few things...

First of all, your character is not starting out as a wimp. You are...at the beginning of the campaign...a Superhero!!

As for having a few points add dramatic abilities to your character..well, the GM has to approve all of those changes.

Furthermore, think of it as a Comic Book genre...sometimes Superman...or Batman...or Spiderman...or whoever, will whip out powers or abilities you've never seen them use before in a tense situation. Well...he just spent some xp, that's all.

It's up to you and your GM to make sure that the powers you add to your character stay within the confines thematically of who your character is. If you are playing the innocent, orphaned girl, psychic, your GM should stop you from buying the Death Cannon Focus that is a 5d6, penetrating RKA.

In the past, I've usually use my xp in Champions to add a few things to the character that I couldn't fit into the original (skills and the like) and to add boosts here and there to pre-existing powers (save up points so I can make my Telekinesis useable in an area of affect, instead of on one target...which is what I did with Dreadnought, my TK specialist).

Cedric