Spoilers Superman Spoiler Thread

[Ruin Explorer]

It did feel like Age of Ultron, which came out a few years later, was a take that to MoS in some ways, not least in the “see, heroes save people” stuff in Sokovia.

I think there definitely was a bit of a reassessment of superheroes and whether there was any "hero" in there really after MoS (he did do some heroism but... not much in the main plot).

The most interesting reassessment for me though remains (plot spoilers for a film several years ago which probably all of us have seen) Spider-Man: No Way Home, which much to my extreme surprise, essentially recognised that the previous two Marvel Spider-Man movies had also been lacking in real heroism (as opposed to mere "impressive feats") and particularly that Spider-Man himself was more "Iron Lad" than Spider-Man, lacking Spider-Man's deep morality which was so important his character, with just a shallow decency and charm instead. The two other Spider-Mans essentially giving Holland's Spider-Man moral instruction/tutelage together with his aunt adopting the Uncle Ben role as a sort of crucible of morality together with the profound reset of the end of the movie were a fascinating change/admission. I mean, it saved the franchise for me. If we'd had another "Iron Lad" movie I'd never have watched a Holland Spider-Man movie again, whereas I'm pretty interested to see how he develops with upcoming Spider-Man 4.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Snyder's take is that, instead of Superman just being fundamentally a good person because he was raised to be that, he had to take some kind of conscious decision to be a good person, which is wiiiiiiiiiild.

If Snyder didn't have a very widespread reputation as a great guy to work with, this would be a massive red flag. Like, does he have a Dexter-style kill room in a storage room in Tarzana or something?

 

[Thomas Shey]

If Snyder didn't have a very widespread reputation as a great guy to work with, this would be a massive red flag. Like, does he have a Dexter-style kill room in a storage room in Tarzana or something?

Its not unknown to have a person who views humanity as a whole as making more amoral decisions than they, themselves do. In particular I can see someone who views people in power as being very tempted in that direction.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Its not unknown to have a person who views humanity as a whole as making more amoral decisions than they, themselves do. In particular I can see someone who views people in power as being very tempted in that direction.

I mean there's a stark difference between "power corrupts", which is a truth of human nature (the degree to and way in which it corrupts varies based on the system, checks and balances, and individual), and "most/all humans are basically evil monsters unless they choose not to be" (which is striking because it shows the person who believes it lacks empathy and a good theory-of-mind for others, or has some mental issues causing them to think empathy is unique to them).

Ironically I don't think Snyder believes either, really. I think he's just a really, really shallow thinker with a strong sense of style. God's perfect film-making himbo. That he's reportedly incredibly nice and doesn't tolerate stars who behave like wankers on his sets absolutely lines up with "god's perfect himbo". I've seen a few interviews and he always came across as sort of human labrador, which again lines up imho.

Like, 300 is a horrific movie if you examine it at all, it's basically an extremist white supremacist alt-right piece far beyond even what the comic book was like, like Identity Evropa couldn't direct something this extreme because they'd have felt they were "going too far" or being "too on the nose" or w/e. Anyone with dark skin is evil. Anyone who is not a perfect physical specimen of humanity is evil - a direct line is drawn between ugliness or deformity or even difference and evil. Only evil people engage in homosexual behaviour (particularly demented in this context, given what we know about the Spartans and Greek warrior-culture in general) or have appearances that aren't totally gender-normative. Only evil people have piercings or similar. The Spartans are altruistic warriors for justice and freedom for all, not the most unequal and brutally oppressive slave-state the world would see for thousands of years (basically until the US South and Haiti - even Rome didn't approach Sparta), nor fundamentally selfish and imperialistic (as they demonstrably were IRL), their imperial ambitions solely limited by the fact that they were trying to contain an insane slave-state which regularly rebelled. This is near-pitch-perfect actual Nazi-style fascist stuff, if you actually look at it.

Do I think Snyder believes in any of that? Do I think he even processed it? Hell no. I think that flew clean over his head at some speed, and that he was copying the comic and sort of exaggerating certain elements! Just himbo'ing it.

 

[Necropolitan]

I like how Lex Luthor as a character can be adapted into so many roles and still work as Lex Luthor as long as you keep a few details together.

I think he really worked in this movie as a machismo-obsessed techbro who claims he's solving problems (which don't actually exist/don't currently exist) while creating even worse ones. Lex Luthor is someone who will destroy the world while insisting he's saving it the entire time. Him flying off in the top of Luthorcorp tower while leaving everyone else to die was a nice touch.

I also liked this version of Otis as the team leader who has the actual people skills that are necessary for Lex's team to actually function as a whole because Lex is too much of an abrasive jerk to do so.

 

[Eric V]

The truck was in reaction to the guys actions in the bar, and at that point, he hadn't even taken up the mantle and was conflicted.

And considering that Zod had decades if not more experience than Kal, the fact that Kal wasn't able to get him into any other location, even though he tried more than once, made sense. There was a comic series that I love - Griffin. It was similarly about superpowered beings, and they had a fight in a city, where one was trained to do as much damage as he could in order to demoralize and the other was more military minded. In the analysis, the general that trained them could see how the fight went by the amount of damage that had been done, i.e. how much trouble the more military minded one had with the other and who won, just based on the amount of damage. Zod used the city to his advantage as a battleground, and I think it would have been very unrealistic if an untrained Superman was able to outsmart him in that.

Seriously. The fight with the Kryptonians was the first fight Clark had ever been in in his entire life. One could argue he did TOO well, considering.

 

[Eric V]

If Snyder didn't have a very widespread reputation as a great guy to work with, this would be a massive red flag. Like, does he have a Dexter-style kill room in a storage room in Tarzana or something?

Snyder is not a shallow thinker. Rather, he tried to ask himself "What would this actually be like today?"

And the fact is, there is nothing in the Kents' lives that could have prepared them to raise a Kryptonian, with all the attendant issues that come with it (raising a human child is challenging enough). Not picking on the Kents here; no one would have the experience necessary.

Everyone picks on the scene where it seems like Jonathan is telling his son to let the kids drown, and forget that by saying "maybe" he's saying "I don't know..." He's allowed to be unsure, and in the face of that uncertainty he prioritizes his son. Which, unfortunately or not, a lot of parents would. Snyder made Jonathan Kent a more real person in this way; worth noting that JK's concerns were right on the money.

It would be insanely complicated to be the adoptive parents of Kal, and Snyder decided to do a deeper dive into that, instead of just defaulting to them being perfect moral paragons from the get-go. I know people want classic all the time, and that's fine, but for my family and I, it was a much more interesting take. The Kents were doing their best considering they don't know they're in a comic-book movie.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I also liked this version of Otis as the team leader who has the actual people skills that are necessary for Lex's team to actually function as a whole because Lex is too much of an abrasive jerk to do so.

Wait, was his name Otis? That's awesome.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Seriously. The fight with the Kryptonians was the first fight Clark had ever been in in his entire life. One could argue he did TOO well, considering.

Have you not ever been in a fight? Even someone new to fighting can make a choice of whether to plow into a bunch of people or move to a less terrible position.

Snyder is not a shallow thinker.

Based on what? Certainly not any of his movies.

And the fact is, there is nothing in the Kents' lives that could have prepared them to raise a Kryptonian

In other words, they're parents, none of whom are prepared for the job when they get it. If you are a decent person at all -- which is how the Kents have been defined since the beginning -- you work to do so in accordance with your values and instill those values in your kid.

"Don't hurt other people, help them when you can, be grateful for the gifts you've been given and share with those less fortunate than you" are all baseline parenting, none of which the Synderverse Pa Kent managed.

Not picking on the Kents here; no one would have the experience necessary.

Absolutely untrue. Lots of parents are dealt extremely hard cards to play and, by and large, they do their absolute best to rise to the occasion.

Everyone picks on the scene where it seems like Jonathan is telling his son to let the kids drown, and forget that by saying "maybe" he's saying "I don't know..." He's allowed to be unsure, and in the face of that uncertainty he prioritizes his son. Which, unfortunately or not, a lot of parents would.

Terrible people would make that choice. Snyder choosing to make Jon Kent a terrible person is precisely what people are objecting to.

 

[overgeeked]

Terrible people would make that choice. Snyder choosing to make Jon Kent a terrible person is precisely what people are objecting to.

And by extension, making Superman a terrible person...making Superman not a hero...etc.