Sure Strike and Careful Attack: How to Fix Them?

[Spatula]

The fighter at-will sure strike (+2 hit, no Str to dmg) and the ranger at-will careful attack (+2 hit, no Str/Dex to dmg) have been judged as being some of the worst at-wills in the game, and rightly so. My question is, what would it take to make them worthwhile?

a) How high would the attack bonus have to be in order to make them comparable with other at-wills? This seems like a tricky question for the ranger - twin strike's two chances of hitting would seem to outstrip nearly any accuracy boost on one attack.

At last year's DDXP, the pregen ranger's careful attack was +4 hit, with apparently no stat boost to damage.

b) Is there some other way to reform these powers?
As a jumping off point, in a friend's game they have houseruled the powers like so:

• Sure Strike: Str +2 vs AC, 1[W]+Str dmg, can be used as a basic melee attack
• Careful Attack: Str/Dex +2 vs AC, 1[W]+Str/Dex dmg, effect: +2 all defenses until the end of your next turn

Thoughts?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Nitpick: This should be House Rules, shouldn't it?

The fighter at-will sure strike (+2 hit, no Str to dmg) and the ranger at-will careful attack (+2 hit, no Str/Dex to dmg) have been judged as being some of the worst at-wills in the game, and rightly so. My question is, what would it take to make them worthwhile?

a) How high would the attack bonus have to be in order to make them comparable with other at-wills? This seems like a tricky question for the ranger - twin strike's two chances of hitting would seem to outstrip nearly any accuracy boost on one attack.

At last year's DDXP, the pregen ranger's careful attack was +4 hit, with apparently no stat boost to damage.

b) Is there some other way to reform these powers?
As a jumping off point, in a friend's game they have houseruled the powers like so:

• Sure Strike: Str +2 vs AC, 1[W]+Str dmg, can be used as a basic melee attack
• Careful Attack: Str/Dex +2 vs AC, 1[W]+Str/Dex dmg, effect: +2 all defenses until the end of your next turn

Thoughts?

Simple solution. No objections, except my habit of over engineering.

For the Fighter, I'd prefer a "weapon specific" solution that brings the secondary attributes into it.
The simple approach would be to just add damage (Con, Dex or Wis, depending on weapon. Maybe marked targets only.) Alternatively, think about a more unique benefit.
Pick one benefit which prerequisites you fulfill:
Con15 or higher, Axe, Hammer or Pick: Critical Hit on a 19-20, roll +1d6 on critical hit (2d6 at level 21 or higher)
Dex15 or higher, Heavy Blade, Light Blade, Flail, Spear: Add +1 power bonus to AC and Reflex Defense.
Wis15 or higher, Polearm or Staff: Use this power as basic attack.

For the Ranger, I would probably always go with a bonus to AC. It fits the term "Careful Attack". I am not sure I would go as high as +2, though.

 

[Remathilis]

Jumping off M_R's idea, how bout it adds your secondary stat to damage?

Sure Strike: +2 to hit, [w] + dex (Heavy blade, light blade, flail, spear), OR + wis (polearm, staff) OR + con (hammer, axe, pick) modifier

Careful Attack +2 to his, [w] + wis modifier

It would also create some interesting synergies for people to build off a secondary stat: A ranger who is dex/wis or str/wis rather than str/dex or a fighter wanting to really up his str/con to eek out a slightly better to hit with his axe (at the expense of cleave or reaping strike).

 

[Spatula]

As for why this isn't in house rules, I was more interested in question (a), not in proposing house ruled versions of the powers (although using secondary stats is an interesting idea). Mathematically, how much extra attack bonus is going to be needed to balance out the loss of +primary stat to damage?

 

[Cadfan]

These powers can't be fixed by increasing or decreasing accuracy or damage.

No matter what you do with them, they will be mathematically comparable to either Twin Strike or Reaping Strike. They will either win, lose, or tie given the ability scores of a particular character and the likely defenses of opponents that character faces. If they win, they render Twin Strike and/or Reaping Strike irrelevant, and we get threads about how to fix Twin Strike or Reaping Strike. If they lose, the problem hasn't been fixed. And if they tie, there's no reason for them to exist.

The only possible fix for these powers is to give them something non-mathematical. Something that can't be replicated with another power. Then they will no longer be mathematically comparable to other powers, and a reason will exist to use them.

I don't know what they should have, but I do know that adding in modifiers to damage, adjusting accuracy, and fiddling around the edges will still leave me able to pull out a calculator and look at your character sheet and tell you which power is better and which is lousy. Until I can't do that, there will be a problem.

 

[Nymrohd]

I like the concept of these at-wills. Certainly the math is pretty clear that they are a drop from average damage. The concept though (an attack you can use when hitting is more important that doing damage) fits a tactical niche (an attack that almost always hits but does little damage, still guarantees you will get a chance to do quarry damage this round for instance). I guess +4 would be reasonable, though the math to get an exact number is not that hard. Another option is to make them attack Reflex.

 

[Pyrex]

How about a different angle:

Sure Strike:
--Str+2, 1[W] + Str damage.
--Miss: Make a second attack against the same target, Str, 1[W] + Str damage.

 

[Angellis_ater]

I'm thinking that a +4 to hit would make the power much more interesting for my gaming group.

 

[Spatula]

These powers can't be fixed by increasing or decreasing accuracy or damage.

No matter what you do with them, they will be mathematically comparable to either Twin Strike or Reaping Strike. They will either win, lose, or tie given the ability scores of a particular character and the likely defenses of opponents that character faces. If they win, they render Twin Strike and/or Reaping Strike irrelevant, and we get threads about how to fix Twin Strike or Reaping Strike. If they lose, the problem hasn't been fixed. And if they tie, there's no reason for them to exist.

Everything is situational, so I can't agree. Does Power Attack have a reason to exist? You use it against low-AC opponents (brutes, lower levels) and don't against high-AC opponents (soldiers, higher levels). An attack that makes the trade in the opposite direction is just as situationally useful.

 

[Ourph]

How about a different angle:

Sure Strike:
--Str+2, 1[W] + Str damage.
--Miss: Make a second attack against the same target, Str, 1[W] + Str damage.

I like that angle, but I prefer this fix..

Sure Strike
Attack: Str vs. AC
Hit: 1W + Str mod damage.
Miss: Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Attac: Str +2 vs. AC
Hit: 1W damage.