D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[Swarmkeeper]

Note that a ranged assassin with a longbow can attack, break off and hide, then repeat the cycle by starting a new combat once the target tries to let down their guard to rest, heal, etc...

Why? The DM should either adjudicate that there is no uncertainty and so the guard is killed by the shot OR have the injured guard ring the alarm bell. Madness cycle ended.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

This has me thinking about the situation that often arises when, during a conversation with NPCs, a Player will declare surprise by attacking out-of-the-blue; however, if everybody is aware of each other they can't get surprise.

Yep. The player doesn't get to declare surprise (except most literally when their PC shouts "surprise!").

 

[aco175]

What If my sleeping Fighter at 20th level with 250 HP getting Assassinated?

Im just auto-killed am I?

I had a PC in 1e get killed this way. The assassin wrote a note to the DM who adjudicated the note and told me, "you're dead."

In my game, the rogue gets to make a sneak attack on the first round if the monsters have not acted yet. An assassin can score a crit if they hit with this attack on the first round only unless the monsters are surprised, and if the monster has not gone yet. There has been a few times where the PCs sneak and the monster is surprised on the first round and the assassin still has the initiative on the monster going into the 2nd round.

I

 

[Flamestrike]

This has me thinking about the situation that often arises when, during a conversation with NPCs, a Player will declare surprise by attacking out-of-the-blue; however, if everybody is aware of each other they can't get surprise.

And as the Rules (and Crawford himself) state clearly, this is NOT surprise. It's just normal initiative.

 

[Asisreo]

What If my sleeping Fighter at 20th level with 250 HP getting Assassinated?

Im just auto-killed am I?

This is the beauty of sticking to the rules. If you're assassinating an ogre with 50+ hp and your assassinate attack does well over 70+ damage, it's an instakill, just as expected.

If you're facing a blackguard with 100+ hp and you're assassinate attack does roughly 70 damage, the blackguard woke up from his sleep while you were attacking him and narrowly dodged(advantage). It nicked him as he tried to shuffle out your way (damage) and it was hard for him to keep you from his throat (crit). He's been surprised, though, so this is all happening before he can do anything but react to the most reflexive movements.

 

[Flamestrike]

This is a fair point. If the player declared the Attack action, they shouldn't be able to pull it back after initiative is rolled. There are no guarantees to the Assassinate ability when the dice come out.

When the hidden Rogue says 'I shoot the guard with my crossbow' he's declaring an action then and there. As soon as the dice get thrown down to resolve that action, and initiative determined, he cant 'take it back' now that he rolled poorly on that Dexterity ability check to sequence that action.

He's committed now.

 

[NotAYakk]

When the hidden Rogue says 'I shoot the guard with my crossbow' he's declaring an action then and there. As soon as the dice get thrown down to resolve that action, and initiative determined, he cant 'take it back' now that he rolled poorly on that Dexterity ability check to sequence that action.

He's committed now.

And, until the Assassin commits to something that will start combat, combat doesn't start.

The same is true when you say "I stab the elf". That is your declared action. Someone could beat your dex check and kill you before you do it, but you are going to stab the elf.

This is the beauty of sticking to the rules. If you're assassinating an ogre with 50+ hp and your assassinate attack does well over 70+ damage, it's an instakill, just as expected.

If you're facing a blackguard with 100+ hp and you're assassinate attack does roughly 70 damage, the blackguard woke up from his sleep while you were attacking him and narrowly dodged(advantage). It nicked him as he tried to shuffle out your way (damage) and it was hard for him to keep you from his throat (crit). He's been surprised, though, so this is all happening before he can do anything but react to the most reflexive movements.

The PC only gets to narrate how they killed it when they reduce it to 0 HP.

 

[Dausuul]

When the hidden Rogue says 'I shoot the guard with my crossbow' he's declaring an action then and there. As soon as the dice get thrown down to resolve that action, and initiative determined, he cant 'take it back' now that he rolled poorly on that Dexterity ability check to sequence that action.

He's committed now.

That's a generally reasonable house rule, but very much a house rule. Per RAW, you declare your action on your turn, not before it. And until initiative is rolled, it can't be your turn because there are no turns.

This is one of the many hiccups that result from having "roll initiative" a) be a discrete event with mechanical consequences, and b) take place before the action that triggers an initiative roll. My group has stumbled over this little paradox more than once. I hope the next edition, whenever it comes, does away with a). Rolling initiative should be viewed simply as determining a pre-existing state of affairs: You are always in initiative order, but normally you don't care what that order is. As soon as it becomes important to know, you roll initiative.

In this approach, surprise would not depend on "Initiative was just rolled"--it would be the result of "On my last turn, I was not aware that combat was imminent, and since then combat has begun." If the action that starts combat is an assassin attacking an unaware target, the assassin gets the benefit of surprise, end of story. If the assassin sees the result of the initiative roll and for some reason decides not to attack, okay. You don't attack. Nothing happens. If the initiative roll doesn't change anything, it doesn't matter if it's followed by combat or not.

 

[Flamestrike]

That's a generally reasonable house rule - but very much a house rule. Per RAW, you declare your action on your turn, not before it. And until initiative is rolled, it can't be your turn because there are no turns.

It's not a house rule.

When a creature (PC or monster) declares a hostile action, combat sequencing starts (and narrative time ends). Every participant in that combat then gets a Dexterity Ability check (initiative) to determine reaction speed to that trigger.

If (during a parlay) you declare your PC Thokk will 'draw his sword and stab the bad guy in the face', the DM says the following:

DM: ''OK; as you're all sitting there talking to each other, suddenly Thokk screams in rage, and his hand goes for his Sword, a look of murder in his eyes. Roll initiative.''

No one is surprised. Everyone rolls initiative. Turns are taken in order.

Thokk isnt 'locked into' going for his sword of course, but the damage is done.

 

[billd91]

And as the Rules (and Crawford himself) state clearly, this is NOT surprise. It's just normal initiative.

I think this is a bad interpretation. It makes it impossible for someone sucker punch someone else with a surprise move. It should be possible to surprise someone even if you know they're there - it's just that the test won't be based on stealth and perception, it'll be based on deception and insight. The key aspect of surprise is still preserved - not noticing the threat - just the specific parameters have changed.