Surprise round attacking from invisible?

[Epicurus88]

Am I right here? Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

So i've got a nemesis invisible nearby. The PC's have succeeded in detecting his presence but not his location thru listen checks.

When the nemesis decides to attack, it wont be a surprise round, because the PC's are 'aware' but the nemesis WILL get to attack first, as the PC's are just standing around, just waiting to be jumped...

So the invisibly attacking nemesis (who will become visible once he makes his attack) will have an initiative one up from the highest initiative PC? There's no RULE like that that i've found in the book... seems like there SHOULD be a surprise round but the PC's are not unaware of a potential threat...

???

 

[Thanee]

Normal Invisibility, I suppose, not the Greater version.

Ok, here's what I'd do...

First, determine which PCs have actually noticed the presence of the invisible opponent (or in your case, if everyone is aware, that's already covered).

If anyone is not aware... Start combat with a Surprise Round, roll initiative for everyone who can act. If a PC can't really do anything yet, since the position is unknown, then there is this nifty Delay action.

If everyone is aware... Start combat with a Regular Combat Round, otherwise as above.

Of course, instead of delaying, they could do anything else, like Ready, go on Total Defense, cast a protective spell, move away, try to pinpoint the invisible opponent by groping (see Invisibility in the DMG), or whatever other method seems reasonable, attack random squares (hey, they could guess right), or whatever.

Ok, now all PCs who were to act before the invisible opponent have acted or delayed and it's that one's turn coming up and it's going to be an attack...

Then the opponent becomes visible after the first attack.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Epicurus88]

So...

I have all of my PC's succeeding in their listen checks. They are all aware 'something' is there. But their just being cautious, doing nothing.

I should conduct this as a normal (non-surprise) round?

So, everyone rolls initiative and then acts their actions, counting down... so let's say the nemesis rolls low for initiative and the PC's all get higher than that... There's a problem: I don't want them to know I'm starting a combat, that would tip the players off! Their opponnet is invisible and they have no idea he's preparing an attack. They just know 'something' is there.

Can't you be aware of your opponent and still suffer a surprise round?

The situation is that they are aware something is there, but they're not really doing anything about it except... i guess, waiting. If I say 'roll initiative' they're gonna know an attack is comming and that just doesn't make sense, as they cant SEE or have any way to KNOW an attack is comming, their opponents actions are unknown to them!

If the PC's roll high on this init, and go before the nemesis, they will cease being flatfooted which, by the spirit of the setting, is wrong 'cos the PC's are just looking about, unaware, uninformed, with only the knowledge something, most likely hostile, is nearby.

It seems like theres this nebulous status PC's have, in that they are aware of the threat of danger but unaware of actions due to lack of difinitive knowledge.

Am I making sense? It just makes no sense to me that PC's would loose their status of being flatfooted before they were aware any attack was being made upon them. They may be aware of the presence of something but they are unaware of the threat is poses... yet.

 

[Bryin]

If the enemy is invisible, then its flat-footed. thats just it until he desides to attack, unless you want to mess with the players (which is fun) by running around in circles.

 

[Epicurus88]

If the enemy is invisible, then its flat-footed. thats just it until he desides to attack, unless you want to mess with the players (which is fun) by running around in circles.

No, maybe I wasnt clear... the PC's are the ones I'm concerned with being flat footed. If they a roll higher initiative than the invisible nemesis, what would justify the PC's loosing their flat-footedness when, in game reaility, they are unaware an attack is comming... ?

 

[Bigwilly]

Be a RBDM

So you are saying your players know something is there, but are not doing anything.

1. Do NOT roll for initiative.
2. Go around the table and ask each player what he/she is doing.
3. Let them make any appropriate rolls to do what they are doing.
4. Skewer target player or roll randomly if you can't decide who to kill.
4a. Needless justification: If players complain, point out that BBEG has been holding his action since they entered the room.
5. Roll initiative.

Bigwilly

 

[Anax]

There are two possible states here: The characters are either ready for combat (i.e. they're in initiative), or they're not. If they're trying to be ready for an attack, they should enter initiative (and you probably need to give them this option.) If they're not trying to be ready, then the invisible attacker should get a surprise round to ensure that it can attack first, then the players roll for initiative.

One way to think of surprise rounds is that the players are not always in a constant state of readiness for combat. This is stressful (and time-wasting at the table, which discourages it.) But when the players are expecting trouble, they should certainly enter that state of readiness. For one thing, it's not possible to ready an action outside of initiative.

So in this case, tell the players that they may choose to enter initiative, and then either delay, refocus, ready actions, or whatever. Now they're ready for the attacker--and the attacker still has an advantage, because he can choose to strike anywhere during the initiative cycle. Or he can choose to leave. Or whatever. And note that when the players choose to enter initiative, the invisible opponent is going to have the opportunity to see which of them get ready before he can act. Did the archer just get ready to attack with his bow, but everybody else is still flat footed? That's a good reason to rush over and attack the archer--bonus attack of opportunity when he shoots you in the face--or to go against his friend in a spot where some cover is offered by the terrain.

If the players do *not* choose to enter initiative, it doesn't really hurt them *that* much in this case. When the attack happens, the invisible attacker should get a surprise round: they're not already ready (if they were, they'd be in initiative), and they can't see the attacker getting ready. The attacker may get an extra standard attack off on someone before they stop being flat-footed, but he can't predict this for sure until initiative is rolled. And everybody will be denied Dex bonus for the attacker's first attack no matter what: because he's invisible.


Still, if I were one of these characters, I would either say "I get ready to attack the invisible opponent when he pops up!" (and since you can only do that in initiative, that forces init rolls), or "I attack this square, because I think he's there" (again, forces init rolls.)

If they're just lolling about, the attacker should take advantage of it if he plans to fight them, and take his surprise--or wait, if he's trying to learn about them, and see how they respond.

 

[dcollins]

When the nemesis decides to attack, it wont be a surprise round, because the PC's are 'aware' but the nemesis WILL get to attack first, as the PC's are just standing around, just waiting to be jumped...

You're hitting on a legitimate issue that is occasionally hard to parse due to the terminology (and use of that terminology in prior editions).

If you've got an invisible attacker entering an already-started combat:
- Surprise does NOT occur. By the rules a "surprise round" can only be one extra round at the beginning of combat.
- Flat-footedness does NOT occur. Again, flat-footed is only condition that exists at the start of combat before a character takes their first turn.

What does happen is this:
- The defender loses their Dex bonus to AC, and the invisible attacker gets +2 to hit (from the PHB "Attack Roll Modifiers" table).

Now, as far as initiative order goes...

So the invisibly attacking nemesis (who will become visible once he makes his attack) will have an initiative one up from the highest initiative PC? There's no RULE like that that i've found in the book... seems like there SHOULD be a surprise round but the PC's are not unaware of a potential threat...

Actually, there IS exactly that rule in my DMG. It's in Ch. 2 under "New Combatants Enter the Fray". There it recommends just what you say, if you've got newcomers who are aware of the existing combat, "Their initiative check result is considered to be 1 higher than the initiative check result among the other participants...." (3.0 DMG p. 62) The intent there is to give an effect similar to the surprise round, even though no such surprise round can really be inserted at that point.

 

[Parlan]

No, maybe I wasnt clear... the PC's are the ones I'm concerned with being flat footed. If they a roll higher initiative than the invisible nemesis, what would justify the PC's loosing their flat-footedness when, in game reaility, they are unaware an attack is comming... ?

Re-read the rules on invisible opponents. (PHB p151) If the NPC is invisible, then he gets a bonus to attack the PCs AND the PCs lose their Dex bonus to AC.

Can the invisible dude sneak attack by any chance?

 

[dcollins]

If the NPC is invisible, then he gets a bonus to attack the PCs AND the PCs lose their Dex bonus to AC... Can the invisible dude sneak attack by any chance?

Yes, because loss of Dex bonus to AC is specifically the trigger which makes sneak attacks possible.