D&D 5E (2014) Surprise; the kicking down the door type (Starter Box)

[Jaracove]

Surprise in the Starter Box Set is conducted via a Dexterity/Stealth v Passive/Perception test, but that doesn't feel right for a kicking down the door type of surprise; that feels more sudden and less a use of being Stealthy. I guess it could still use Stealth but I'm not entirely happy with it.

What's your take on it?

 

[Morrus]

If they hear you outside the door, you don't surprise them. If they don't, you do. I'd use stealth. It fits perfectly IMO. The thickness of the door itself can modify that if you like. And if you fail to break the door down first time, no chance of surprise

 

[evileeyore]

I'd be fine with the party deciding to kick in a door. Just sub STR/Athletics in for DEX/Stealth, if the party fails then the door failed to open, they made noise and the enemies are alerted.

 

[Jaracove]

Good suggestions

Have to remember to put my old school hat on; it's been a long time

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Surprise in the Starter Box Set is conducted via a Dexterity/Stealth v Passive/Perception test, but that doesn't feel right for a kicking down the door type of surprise; that feels more sudden and less a use of being Stealthy. I guess it could still use Stealth but I'm not entirely happy with it.

What's your take on it?

You don't necessarily have to use Stealth, not if whoever is inside the door is expecting someone to be there. If people walk by there all the time, they won't realize something is wrong until you've literally kicked in the door.

There are rules for non-Stealth surprise in most versions of D&D, but they're usually anemic. In 4e, you could use Bluff (disguise or a sudden unexpected attack) instead of Stealth, but what if you run into someone in a corridor or just kick down the door unstealthily?

 

[Morrus]

You don't necessarily have to use Stealth, not if whoever is inside the door is expecting someone to be there. If people walk by there all the time, they won't realize something is wrong until you've literally kicked in the door.

There are rules for non-Stealth surprise in most versions of D&D, but they're usually anemic. In 4e, you could use Bluff (disguise or a sudden unexpected attack) instead of Stealth, but what if you run into someone in a corridor or just kick down the door unstealthily?

Then they hear you and you don't get surprise. Surprise is for when they don't know you're there (bluff being the exception).

 

[trentonjoe]

I don't know, I would be surprised if someone kicked in my door on the first try. I like the"if you make strength check they are surprised" option.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm not sure if the core books will justify this usage, but I'm planning on applying the group checks rule to stealth and surprise chances. So if half the members of a sneaking group beat the passive perception of a group, they surprise them (then each character compares their individual perception to the stealth of each creature to see which creatures they individually are aware once their turn comes up). If the group stealth check fails, the only people surprised are those whose passive perception doesn't beat any of the stealth checks.

Of course, we don't know what a group's "passive Wisdom (Perception) pool" is yet, because the term was used but not described. I'm expecting that it will be described in the core books somewhere. Since individual characters are apparently able to "add their passive Wisdom (Perception)" to that group pool, I'm using a temporary house rule that each other character not otherwise preoccupied (per the rules for performing other actions while traveling) adds a +1 to the passive Wisdom (Perception) of the highest member of the group.

Makes surprise actually happen now and again. In the playtest, the Keeping Watch rule made sure that our group was never surprised.

 

[Morrus]

I don't know, I would be surprised if someone kicked in my door on the first try. I like the"if you make strength check they are surprised" option.

If you heard them fumbling about outside you wouldn't be surprised. You'd be the opposite of surprised - you'd be alerted. If they kicked the door in and you had no idea it was about to happen, they made their stealth check.

Your ability to deal with this information, or your initiative check, is another matter entirely,

 

[trentonjoe]

If you heard them fumbling about outside you wouldn't be surprised. You'd be the opposite of surprised - you'd be alerted. If they kicked the door in and you had no idea it was about to happen, they made their stealth check.

Your ability to deal with this information, or your initiative check, is another matter entirely,

I would think the people on the other side of the room, behind a closed door, would have disadvantage in hearing people on the other side unless they were paying attention.

I suppose a passive perception vs stealth would be in order AND then a STRENGTH check. I would be inclined to skip the first one though in order to let the second be "cooler".