Surprise within a round?

[irdeggman]

Normally, in this scenario (if I were using 2E AD&D rules), I would throw nish when the first punch occured. But, what got me about the new rules is that I needed Bad Guy #1 to have the spear up to granny's neck, ready to kill her. If I don't do that, then one of the PC's could win nish, charge him, and get in an attack before he could spear granny.

Must be a Conan rule then.

In D&D even if the encounter is started with the bad guy having the spear to grandma's neck, based on initiative and dice rolls it is still possible for the good guy to win initiative and free granny before the bad guy can finish her off.

In D&D all of a character's actions are resolved on their turn in the initiative order before another character's actions are resolved (or occur even). Part of the abstractness of D&D combat.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

DMG II right?

And PHB II, yup.

 

[Water Bob]

ok, now I remembered why I treat 30' with a -5.

SRD:
our Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

RC:
You can move up to half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging.

Both wordings fail to specify how one should treat hiding while moving at EXACTLY normal speed.

I don't know about that...

Just being Devil's Advocate, here.

If the rule specifically states that the -5 penalty applies to greater than one half but less than normal speed, it is definitely excluding normal speed.

Moving at Speed 30 is a pretty fast clip. We'd consider it a jog.

And, running has a -20 penlaty.

So, I would say that the rule means exactly what it says--that the designers are trying to keep the pace of Hiding and moving viable only at very slow speeds, which makes a lot of sense to me.

Half speed or less? No penalty. That's where you should move if you want to stay hidden?

Want to move a bit faster? OK. You can, at a -5 penalty, but when you hit your Speed Rating, we're really going to dock you with a -20 penalty because you're moving too fast to stay hidden.



It's almost as if the designers wanted to keep movement and Hide at half speed or less, but decided to let the character move a bit faster, at a -5 penalty, as long as he didn't go his Speed or Faster.

That makes a lot of sense to me, especially when you consider how fast 30' a round really is.





EDIT: So Moving and Hiding has three categories.

CAT 1 - The sweet spot: Moving Half Speed or less. No penalty.

CAT 2 - Pusing it: If you have to move faster, just don't reach your Speed, and you'll get a -5 penalty.

CAT 3 - Oh, no you don't: If you move your Speed or more, you're really moving too fast to remain hidden. -20 penalty.

 

[Greenfield]

30 feet in 6 seconds is 300 feet in a minute is 18000 feet in an hour. That works out to 3.4 and a bit miles an hour. That's pretty much normal walking pace, and not a jog at all.

It puts a jog (hustle or double-move) at 6.8 mph, and a full run at 13.6 mph.

The average human will run a hundred yard dash in about 16 seconds, trained runners will do it in 12 seconds, and exceptional runners can make it in 9 seconds.

Aside from the unusual time they let someone maintain a sprint, D&D movement for people is surprisingly accurate. Very few other game engines do as well.

 

[Water Bob]

30 feet in 6 seconds is 300 feet in a minute is 18000 feet in an hour. That works out to 3.4 and a bit miles an hour. That's pretty much normal walking pace, and not a jog at all.

It puts a jog (hustle or double-move) at 6.8 mph, and a full run at 13.6 mph.

Check out pg. 163 of the 3.5 PHB. You are partially correct, but didn't read it all.

Hustle: A hustle is a jog at about six miles per hour for an unencumbered human. A character tha tmoves his speed twice in a single round....

That's the part you addressed above. But, there's more.

....or moves that speed in the same round he performs a standard action or another move action is hustling when he moves.



Now maybe I've read this wrong, and if I have correct me, what what I see is this:

Perform 1 Move action in a round and nothing else, you're Walking.

Perform 2 Move actions, or perform 1 Move action and 1 Standard action during a round, you're Hustling.

Therefore, half Speed is walking speed.



Now, I'm more than willing to be corrected. And, I would like someone to correct me if I've read this wrong. But, that's what it looks like it says, to me.



EDIT: I'm going to leave the above even though I've found evidence that I'm wrong. It explains where I was coming from.

If you look at the Movement and Distance Chart, regardless of how the rule is written above, it shows a Walk = 1 Move Action. So, Greenfield is correct, and what I said is off the mark.

The chart shows Walk = 1 Move Action and Hustle = 2 Move Actions (which is wierd, given the way the rule is written above--though the chart makes more sense).







2nd EDIT: This is interesting, too. I'm looking at the RC, pg. 92. This might shed some light on the screwy language in the Hide + Movement rule.

It says:

Move between Cover: If you're already hiding thanks to cover or concealment, and you have at least 5 ranks in Hide, you can make a Hide check (with a penalty) to try to move across an area that doesn't offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself. For every 5 ranks in Hide you possess, you can move up to 5 feet between one hiding place and another. For every 5 feet of open space you must cross between hiding places, you take a -5 penalty on your Hide check. Movement speed penalizes the check as normal.

First off, this looks like a totally different rule from the one included under the Hide skill that we were using above. It doesn't mention getting the distance of 1/2 Move without penalty.

But, if you do get the 1/2 Move without penalty, and you have Speed 30, then (and you assumed the penalty maxed out at -20)....

5'-15' (1-3 squares) no penalty.

20' = -5 penalty.

25' = -10 penalty.

30' = -15 penalty.

35'+ = -20 penalty.

Either way, that's a different rule from the first one we saw....maybe a change in the editions, from 3E to 3.5E?

 

[Greenfield]

I don't think the two rules are talking about the same thing.

One is talking about how fast you can move, with cover, and how much penalty you suffer when you do.

The other is talking about how far you can dash between covered areas, and what penalties apply there.

If you move a full move, from cover to cover, I'd think you'd suffer both penalties. That is, presuming a 30 foot base move, you'd suffer -25 for crossing 5 squares of open ground, plus another -20 for taking the full move.

And if you can pull that off, you're one heck of a stealth artist. Either that, or nobody's actually looking.


As for me being right or wrong: I was just doing math, not arguing rules. You can run the numbers yourself and get the same answers. Rule interpretations are subject to interpretation, opinion, judgment. Math is just math.

 

[Water Bob]

I don't think the two rules are talking about the same thing.

I actually thought that at first, especially reading the last line that says, "Movement speed penalizes the check as normal."

But, then you start adding in the penalties.

Let's say a guy's got 10 ranks in Hide with a DEX 16. That +13, right? That ain't bad. And, let's go ahead and put him in a good position, with cover, and say that he's wearing no armor (so he doesn't have a penalty there).

So far, everything is in his favor.

He's Speed 30. His next hiding spot is just 20' away.

We're going to penalize him -5 for the speed (over half move but less than full move) and -20 (-5 per 5 foot square) for the distance?

That's a -25 total modifier.

Can that be right?



This guy's minimum modifier is -5, and that's only if he had to move 5 freakin' feet! -10 for 10 feet. and -15 for 15 feet!

If this is true, those modifiers will sure keep you from being out in the open for more than 5 foot at a time, especially if you're throwing against a guard's Spot check.

 

[Greenfield]

Yeah, that's right.

Think about it. He's crossing 20 feet of open ground, nothing to hide behind. In essence, he's hoping that the guard will somehow not notice him during that exposed period. In a world where, likely as not, shadows and natural darkness don't mean a thing (Low Light and Darkvision).

The fact that he can try at all would stretch credibility to the breaking point in the real world. It brings back that discussion we had on the No Facing rule. I tend to play it as "no facing in combat". Out of combat is another story. So when you dart across that 20 feet of open ground, you're trying to time it for a moment when the guard is looking the other way.

If the guard is bored (-5 Distracted penalty to Spot) and is some distance away (Say 50 feet, for another -5), he's at a total of -10 on his Spot, and you're at a total of -12 on your Hide (+13 base and -25 penalty, from your example.)

The odds aren't in your favor, but it's still possible. He needs to outroll the other guy by 2, plus his actual Spot bonus.

You just have to hope that he's a typical Fighter who didn't bother spending points on a cross-class skill like Spot.

 

[Water Bob]

If the guard is bored (-5 Distracted penalty to Spot) and is some distance away (Say 50 feet, for another -5), he's at a total of -10 on his Spot, and you're at a total of -12 on your Hide (+13 base and -25 penalty, from your example.)

If the guard has any ranks in Spot at all, I think it's highly unrealistic. Crossing 20 feet, even in open daylight, is quite achieveable if the guard isn't aroused and you cross when he passes you or looks the other way.

Isn't that what the roll is supposed to achieve--to tell when the guard is looking the other way?

Let's say the guard is +6 Spot. Under your scenario, the guard is -4 and the silent mover is -12 with a much higher skill level.

And, does the guard get a Listen check, too? If you add that in, Stealth become impossible--not like real life at all.

 

[Jimlock]

I don't know about that...

Just being Devil's Advocate, here.

If the rule specifically states that the -5 penalty applies to greater than one half but less than normal speed, it is definitely excluding normal speed.

Moving at Speed 30 is a pretty fast clip. We'd consider it a jog.

And, running has a -20 penlaty.

So, I would say that the rule means exactly what it says--that the designers are trying to keep the pace of Hiding and moving viable only at very slow speeds, which makes a lot of sense to me.

Half speed or less? No penalty. That's where you should move if you want to stay hidden?

Want to move a bit faster? OK. You can, at a -5 penalty, but when you hit your Speed Rating, we're really going to dock you with a -20 penalty because you're moving too fast to stay hidden.



It's almost as if the designers wanted to keep movement and Hide at half speed or less, but decided to let the character move a bit faster, at a -5 penalty, as long as he didn't go his Speed or Faster.

That makes a lot of sense to me, especially when you consider how fast 30' a round really is.





EDIT: So Moving and Hiding has three categories.

CAT 1 - The sweet spot: Moving Half Speed or less. No penalty.

CAT 2 - Pusing it: If you have to move faster, just don't reach your Speed, and you'll get a -5 penalty.

CAT 3 - Oh, no you don't: If you move your Speed or more, you're really moving too fast to remain hidden. -20 penalty.

I completely disagree with you... devil's advocate.


A creature with a movement of 30'....


takes a move action to hide while moving at 25' per move action at -5

and then...

takes a move action to hide while moving at 30' per move action.... at -20?????? another -15 for those extra 5' ???

....and when this creatures actually RUNS at 120 feet per round and attempts to hide while doing so... he takes the same penalty?

I find this completely illogical.

Moving at 25' per round, means that you are still "hustling", just as if you were "hustling" at 30'.

Even the difference between half speed and faster is -5, not -15!!

Moreover, Running is something totally different. A character cannot really pay attention to cover or concealment while running (-20). It is a concentrated effort to move as fast as possible (full round action). It has nothing to do with regular movement, by which a character is also capable of paying attention to various things in a battle or outside of it.


Like I said in my earlier post, I'm certain that the wording has this small mistake. Again, what they really meant to say was:

You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half and up to your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging.