Surprise within a round?

[Water Bob]

Still, I treat 30' (normal movement) as 20' to to 25' (meaning with a -5 and not a -20). I know that this isn't what raw says, but it somehow makes more cense to me. It somehow feels that this is what they meant (!!!)...

I'm just now grasping the issue, I know, but don't forget that movement of 30' in a round is quite a quick pace. In the Movement section of my Conan RPG, they call it a "hustle", not a "walk". A "walk" is half speed (15' per round).

Based on that, I think I can buy the -20 at Speed 30.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

I'm just now grasping the issue, I know, but don't forget that movement of 30' in a round is quite a quick pace. In the Movement section of my Conan RPG, they call it a "hustle", not a "walk". A "walk" is half speed (15' per round).

Based on that, I think I can buy the -20 at Speed 30.

To be honest I've always thought that the sudden transition from -5 to -20 was a bit much. A character at his normal speed is still comfortable with it, so -10 seems appropriate.

30' in 3 seconds (60 feet in 6 for a double move) is 10' a second. 600 feet per minute, 36000 feet per hour, or roughly 6.8 miles per hour. I'd agree that can definitely be called a hustle. One of the main three books does say character move at a decent clip during combat, for obvious reasons.

 

[anest1s]

To be honest I've always thought that the sudden transition from -5 to -20 was a bit much. A character at his normal speed is still comfortable with it, so -10 seems appropriate.

30' in 3 seconds (60 feet in 6 for a double move) is 10' a second. 600 feet per minute, 36000 feet per hour, or roughly 6.8 miles per hour. I'd agree that can definitely be called a hustle. One of the main three books does say character move at a decent clip during combat, for obvious reasons.

If a round is 6 secs and 3 secs are a move action, then move action=standard action(6-3=3), so you should have 2 standard actions each turn...? Why everyone wants to count everything in seconds lately

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Those with uncanny dodge, simply can't lose their Dex to Armor Class, this does not mean that they are not surprised/flat-footed.

When flat-footed, like everybody else, they can't take immediate actions for example. Also invisible creatures still have the +2 to attack against them.

For all reasons and purposes they are treated as flat-footed/"surprised".
Now as far as the benefits go... apart from the obvious (retaining Dex) they cannot be sneaked attacked. This is because SA demands that one is deprived of his Dex bonus, not that he is "flat-footed".

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

EDIT: It's probable that by "can't be truly surprised", you meant the above. Still I just wanted to make it clear

I'd call retaining Dex being a big part of not being truly surprised. The character can still effectively dodge or react, meaning even if something does get the jump on him, he's not going "OMG, what do I do?"

I was kind of lumping Improved Uncanny Dodge along in there. Someone with IUD cannot be flanked.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

If a round is 6 secs and 3 secs are a move action, then move action=standard action(6-3=3), so you should have 2 standard actions each turn...? Why everyone wants to count everything in seconds lately

I'm going based off the numbers really. If a character can only do 2 move actions a round then it's effectively 3 seconds per move. Reduced down, a character going 60 feet in a round of 6 seconds is going 10 feet per second.

From a gameplay perspective, the thing that makes the most sense is that a standard action overlaps a portion of a move action. A character won't simply walk right up to a monster, take a minor pause, then attack. The character will have weapon ready and when getting close enough to hit, start the attack while finishing the move.

 

[Jimlock]

ok, now I remembered why I treat 30' with a -5.

SRD:
our Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

RC:
You can move up to half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging.

Both wordings fail to specify how one should treat hiding while moving at EXACTLY normal speed.

When hiding while moving at normal speed:

you are neither moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed (-5) , nor are you running (-20).

The way I see it, it's far more logical to treat it with a -5 than with a -20. The -20 goes for extreme motion (attacking, running or charging)

I supposed they could have said: When moving at a speed greater than half and up to your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging.

I think that this is what they meant!

 

[Jackinthegreen]

-5 at normal speed would work, although to me a -10 seems more down-to-earth. If you're intentionally moving at a slower speed for the hide check then you ought to get a "bonus" for it. Moving at your normal speed while trying to sneak means you take a penalty for it since you have to balance the aspects of normal movement and sneaking around.

 

[Jimlock]

I'd call retaining Dex being a big part of not being truly surprised. The character can still effectively dodge or react, meaning even if something does get the jump on him, he's not going "OMG, what do I do?"

I see what you are saying, still IMHO, a big part of being surprised, is that you do not get to "act" during a surprised round, Uncanny dodge or not.

Just saying... not an arguing or anything...

 

[Jackinthegreen]

I see what you are saying, still IMHO, a big part of being surprised, is that you do not get to "act" during a surprised round, Uncanny dodge or not.

Just saying... not an arguing or anything...

I agree with you on that. Sudden battle gets the jump on most anyone.

That's why it pays to have someone with good scouting ability. The Awareness Teamwork Benefit definitely helps in such a case.

 

[Jimlock]

DMG II right?