Surprise within a round?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Now, help me, here. If the hidden Grath gets his action triggered on Round 2, he won't catch anyone flat-footed, right? They should be able to completely defend themselves even though they don't know he's there.

Right?

An invisible attacker generally gets to deny his opponents their Dex bonus to AC vs. his attacks. It's similar, but not identical, to being flat-footed.

Invisible

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.)

Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Also, as mentioned, standing up from prone is a move action, and whether you want to count crouched down as prone is a DM call; I wouldn't, but that's just me.

So, on his turn, your Grath could stand up (maybe a move action) and attack (a standard action), and then crouch back down to remain hiding (probably a free action); he'd have to make a Hide check at -20 to do so and remain undetected. Anyone who hasn't seen him is denied their Dex bonus against his attacks, and is subject to sneak attacks, etc.

 

[Water Bob]

An invisible attacker generally gets to deny his opponents their Dex bonus to AC vs. his attacks. It's similar, but not identical, to being flat-footed.

Is the Grath that's behind the wagon invisiible? Aren't they talking about magical invisibility here?



So....

Without magical invisibility, the Grath that pops out from behind the wagon to chuck his javelin does not catch his foes flat-footed even though they were not aware that the was there (because the combat might be in round 3 by this point).

Correct?

Anyone who hasn't seen him is denied their Dex bonus against his attacks, and is subject to sneak attacks, etc.

In Conan, if you deny the DEX bonus, the character is flat-footed because armor does not improve AC. The defense of the character is either AC 10 (flat-footed), or AC + DEX + Dodge bonus (Dodge), or AC + STR + Parry bonus (Parry).

I think, in this situation, that none of the targets will be flat-footed for the Grath.

Maybe I should give him a +2 Advantaged bonus on his to-hit throw.

 

[anest1s]

In Conan, if you deny the DEX bonus, the character is flat-footed because armor does not improve AC. The defense of the character is either AC 10 (flat-footed), or AC + DEX + Dodge bonus (Dodge), or AC + STR + Parry bonus (Parry).

I think, in this situation, that none of the targets will be flat-footed for the Grath.

Maybe I should give him a +2 Advantaged bonus on his to-hit throw.

Combat Statistics :: d20srd.org

When Flat footed, you lose your dexterity bonus.
When hit by a touch attack, you lose shield armor and natural armor bonus

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Is the Grath that's behind the wagon invisiible? Aren't they talking about magical invisibility here?

What's the difference between a hidden person you don't see and an invisible person you don't see?

Unfortunately, the Hide rules are somewhat ... less than stellar ... in their writing, and it never specifically says what the effects are for successfully hidding from someone.

So, as far as I know, the most common way to handle this is if you have succeeded on your Hide check, you are treated as invisible to the person from whom you are hiding.

Elsewise, what does Hide do?

Correct?

Sure - if you want Hide to have no appreciable usage.

In Conan,

In D&D, there is a difference between flat-footed and denied your Dex bonus. They are largely similar, but not the same.

For instance, a Rogue 4 (with Uncanny Dodge) is not flat-footed at the start of combat. However, if someone successfully bluffs that Rogue with a feint, they are still denied their Dex bonus against the next attack the feinter makes.

 

[Water Bob]

Combat Statistics :: d20srd.org

When Flat footed, you lose your dexterity bonus.
When hit by a touch attack, you lose shield armor and natural armor bonus

As I say, the Conan RPG is a tad different in this area.

What's the difference between a hidden person you don't see and an invisible person you don't see?

You've been correct on all the issues so far, so I'll definitely give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll read my Conan book a bit more thoroughly to see where D&D and Conan gells on this.

 

[Greenfield]

What's the difference between a hidden person you don't see and an invisible person you don't see?

One could be standing next to you, with unobstructed view and access, and the other can't?

Just saying.

That last part is important, by the way.

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

When hiding from someone, you need concealment, and that usually works both ways. Whatever is between them and you, for you to use as concealment, is also between you and them.

An invisible person, however, has a form of concealment that doesn't conceal their target from them.

One of the oddities of D&D is that a Rogue can't sneak attack in the shadows, unless they have exceptional vision (i.e. low light or darkvision).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

One could be standing next to you, with unobstructed view and access, and the other can't?

Certainly; but what's the benefit of actually hiding, then?

When hiding from someone, you need concealment, and that usually works both ways.

Usually, but not always.

And also, you can use cover to hide - like a wagon, perhaps?

And cover does not prevent sneak attacks.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You've been correct on all the issues so far, so I'll definitely give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll read my Conan book a bit more thoroughly to see where D&D and Conan gells on this.

The question to think about is what does Hiding actually do for you?

If you don't treat the successful hider as invisible vs. the unsuccessful viewer, what does it do?

The rules are unfortunately not terribly clear on the matter.

 

[Greenfield]

Someone who is invisible can move about the field with relative impunity.

Someone hiding can't.

Someone invisible can aid friends in need of healing.

Someone hiding can't.

When someone hiding joins a combat already in progress, they come in on Initiative 20, since they have effectively been holding action or refocusing.

Someone Invisible can't.

Someone hiding can remain hidden, with a successful roll, after attacking.

Someone invisible can't.

The purpose of hiding is usually to avoid combat.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

When someone hiding joins a combat already in progress, they come in on Initiative 20, since they have effectively been holding action or refocusing.

Someone Invisible can't.

Whyever not?

Also, there's no such thing as the Refocus action. It was useless when they made it in 3.0, and the realized that and got rid of it in 3.5.

In the end, someone invisible or hiding can ready / delay until whatever point they want, just like someone who isn't invisible or hiding. They just tend to be safer while doing it.

Someone hiding can remain hidden, with a successful roll, after attacking.

Someone invisible can't.

Yes, they can. They just need a different spell or ability than the 2nd-level version (e.g., Greater Invisibility).

And, additionally, what are the effects of hiding while attacking?

The purpose of hiding is usually to avoid combat.

And if you're in combat, then what?