Surprise within a round?

[Water Bob]

I keep partially agreeing with Greenfield on this one and partially agreeing with Patryn. They're both making good points, imo.

But this...

When someone hiding joins a combat already in progress, they come in on Initiative 20, since they have effectively been holding action or refocusing.

...is incorrect. See 3.5 DMG pg. 23. If the new combatant is aware of the others, he enters the round first in the nish sequence at 1 point higher than the highest nish throw among the others.

If the new combatant is not aware of the others, then he rolls nish at the beginning of the round when he will enter combat and act on his nish roll.

 

[Jimlock]

RC, p92

Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
You need cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually obviates the need for a Hide check, since nobody can see you anyway. Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.
You can move up to half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging.
If someone is observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. The hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

Blend into a Crowd: You can use the Hide skill to blend into a crowd, but doing so conceals you only from someone scanning the area to find you. You remain visible to everyone around you, and if they happen to be hostile, they’re likely to point you out.

Move between Cover: If you’re already hiding thanks to cover or concealment, and you have at least 5 ranks in Hide, you can make a Hide check (with a penalty) to try to move across an area that doesn’t offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself. For every 5 ranks in Hide you possess, you can move up to 5 feet between one hiding place and another. For every 5 feet of open space you must cross between hiding places, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. Movement speed penalizes the check as normal.

Sneak up from Hiding: You can sneak up on someone after emerging from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn’t notice you until you attack or perform some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then take a move action to hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

 

[Water Bob]

RIf you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

Can someone spread some love to Jimlock for me? I guess I've loved him too much lately.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Basically what Jim posted, with some minor additions: Remember that being flat-footed means you effectively can't react to something because you're surprised in some form or another. Those with Uncanny Dodge have a distinct advantage because they have a sixth sense when it comes to danger, and thus can't be truly surprised.

 

[Water Bob]

Never mind. Can't delete posts, huh?

 

[Water Bob]

You can move up to half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging.

What is this really saying here. It's kinda worded funky.

You've got a character with Speed 30.

He can move unseen 1-15' at no penalty.







This next part seems strange: "When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty."

What does that mean? He moves 16'-29' at a -5 penalty? Strange range numbers, if that's true.





And, I take it that if you move your Speed or any faster than your Speed, you take a -20 on your Hide check to remain unseen while you are moving: "You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging."

So, that goes for? 30'+?

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Remember that speed is always in increments of 5', so the -5 penalty for a 30' character happens at 20' and 25' respectively. And yes, moving at 30' or more makes the penalty -20.

I think you'd do well to have The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org bookmarked. That's pretty much all of the PHB, DMG, and MM right there.

 

[Water Bob]

Remember that speed is always in increments of 5', so the -5 penalty for a 30' character happens at 20' and 25' respectively. And yes, moving at 30' or more makes the penalty -20.

I see.

So... 5'-15' (or 1-3 squares) is no penalty.

20'-25' (or 4-5 squares) is -5 penalty.

30'+ (or 6+ squares) is -20 penalty.

That makes more sense.

 

[Jimlock]

Basically what Jim posted, with some minor additions: Remember that being flat-footed means you effectively can't react to something because you're surprised in some form or another. Those with Uncanny Dodge have a distinct advantage because they have a sixth sense when it comes to danger, and thus can't be truly surprised.

Those with uncanny dodge, simply can't lose their Dex to Armor Class, this does not mean that they are not surprised/flat-footed.

When flat-footed, like everybody else, they can't take immediate actions for example. Also invisible creatures still have the +2 to attack against them.

For all reasons and purposes they are treated as flat-footed/"surprised".
Now as far as the benefits go... apart from the obvious (retaining Dex) they cannot be sneaked attacked. This is because SA demands that one is deprived of his Dex bonus, not that he is "flat-footed".

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

EDIT: It's probable that by "can't be truly surprised", you meant the above. Still I just wanted to make it clear

 

[Jimlock]

I see.

So... 5'-15' (or 1-3 squares) is no penalty.

20'-25' (or 4-5 squares) is -5 penalty.

30'+ (or 6+ squares) is -20 penalty.

That makes more sense.

Yep, that's exactly what RAW says (Both in the PHB and the Rules Compendium).

Still, I treat 30' (normal movement) as 20' to to 25' (meaning with a -5 and not a -20). I know that this isn't what raw says, but it somehow makes more cense to me. It somehow feels that this is what they meant (!!!)...