Surprise within a round?

[PureGoldx58]

Look up new combatants or additional combatants in the DMG or PHB one of the two. I can't remember what book it was in but I know it had rules for this EXACT thing.

 

[anest1s]

Rogue waits five feet from his target - takes a five foot step next round and SA's the Wizard five times (GTWF).



It is obvious that combat as not happened in either the Rogue/Parties example or the Bandit example, and it is also obvious that one person is aware of his opponent without them being aware of him.

The Rogue or the Bandit are awarded a surprise round before combat begins, in which they can perform a standard or a move action.

Sorry, but I am afraid you are wrong. Surprise round happens at the beginning of the combat, and it is only a standard action.

The rogue wont join at the beginning of the battle, so he won't get a surprise round.
-Either you will have him join the battle at the first round, and give only him a surprise round at the beginning of the battle
-Or you have him join the battle at the first round, but he doesn't use his surprise round
-Or you have him join the battle at a later point, and he acts first on the next round from the round he joined, but he gets no surprise round/ surprise round happens only before normal rounds begin.

But in any case, if he succeeds his hide check, then the opponents are flat footed to him.

@Water Bob
A scenario without the hidden guy first:

If the players rush, then roll initiative for both sides at the same time.
If they stealth, then if they are unheard they get surprise round (and this raises the question how the other guy knew to stay hidden)

Because the PCs hear the screaming, the bad guy probably cant surprise them.

If the bad guy wins the initiative, he can talk and ready an action.
If the players win the initiative, they will attack first and you wont have time to ready any action.
If they get the surprise round it will be worse, because they will have one more standard action to cast spells or throw arrows, or even partial charge.

(You can't ready an action out of combat sadly)
Probably the combat will end at round one, if the players act smart.
To prevent this, have them roll initiative when they spot that. Since he isn't hiding, roll according to the spot rules, to see how far the party is when they first see him (or how far the party is, when he sees them). That way he will probably survive enough to talk.

Now, the scenario with the hidden guy.

PCs rush
they see visible npc or visible npc sees them
when visible NPC spots them first, he tells the hidden NPC, who is looting the wagon, to stay hidden as a free action.
Then he shouts the warning and readies his action.

Everything and everyone rolls initiative (after the surprise round, no matter who got it, rolling higher spot), including the hidden NPC, even if he can't see the PCs yet. At his first turn (when he gets informed form the visible NPC) he rolls to hide (or not, if he has full cover). The second round, he either readies an attack every round to anyone who will move into a position that can spot him, or he waits for a signal to attack. After he notices a signal, he stops readying and jumps out.

In any case, the opponent is flat footed. Even if he just noticed him....its too late to avoid the deadly attack.

If his ready action kicks in, he plays just before the guy he attacked.
If not, he keeps playing at his initiative order.

That way, if one PC charge he will still get his attack, if not, he will just lose some time till his turn comes.

Look up new combatants or additional combatants in the DMG or PHB one of the two. I can't remember what book it was in but I know it had rules for this EXACT thing.

DMG p23, I was wondering why I couldn't find it in PH, thx lol

 

[Sekhmet]

Sorry, but I am afraid you are wrong. Surprise round happens at the beginning of the combat, and it is only a standard action.

The rogue wont join at the beginning of the battle, so he won't get a surprise round.
-Either you will have him join the battle at the first round, and give only him a surprise round at the beginning of the battle
-Or you have him join the battle at the first round, but he doesn't use his surprise round
-Or you have him join the battle at a later point, and he acts first on the next round from the round he joined, but he gets no surprise round/ surprise round happens only before normal rounds begin.

But in any case, if he succeeds his hide check, then the opponents are flat footed to him.

SRD states Standard or Move actions can be taken.
Combat has not started in either example, therefor a surprise round can still occur.

 

[anest1s]

Why does Jackie Chan not get his surprise hit? No one saw him coming, no one knew he was there.

He should roll initiative in order to ready the action.
Jackie will had a surprise hit- the ready action wasn't directed at him, and he acted on his turn having everyone flat footed. And unaware of him.

The bandit will do this too. I am not saying he will start the combat though. He may even act after the visible NPC is dead already. If he wants to shoot first, at the surprise round, thats ok, and a good strategy. But if he doesn't want, then he won't.

But if Batman tried anything smart, the kitten would be dead. Thats why he waited Jackie.

SRD states Standard or Move actions can be taken.
Combat has not started in either example, therefor a surprise round can still occur.

I got confused too, because on your original example you stated that no one got a surprise round, and that the rogue got one later. Now I realize that you were offering an alternative example.

 

[Water Bob]

Think about a real world application for a moment. Three thugs in an alley face off against Batman.

Real world application....and Batman!




There is sometimes a question when to roll initiative and switch from scenes to combat. Do you roll at the first punch (sword strike, spell casting, sling stone, arrow, whatever)? Or, do you roll when hostile action is immenent?

Normally, in this scenario (if I were using 2E AD&D rules), I would throw nish when the first punch occured. But, what got me about the new rules is that I needed Bad Guy #1 to have the spear up to granny's neck, ready to kill her. If I don't do that, then one of the PC's could win nish, charge him, and get in an attack before he could spear granny.

That didn't seem right to me.

So, I figured I'd roll nish as soon as the two parties saw each other. I'm willing to change when I roll it, but I don't think I'll allow a PC to move 60' and swing a the bad guy before he can put the spear point through grandma.

Plus, what I have planned after this encounter (this encounter turns into a chase scene--so I can't have the PCs saving grandma too early) rides on the Bad Guy controlling the situation. And, he can controll it if he's got that spear to grandma's neck. The players should hesitate at that because the grandma character is a beloved NPC to the players.

 

[anest1s]

Real world application....and Batman!




There is sometimes a question when to roll initiative and switch from scenes to combat. Do you roll at the first punch (sword strike, spell casting, sling stone, arrow, whatever)? Or, do you roll when hostile action is immenent?

Normally, in this scenario (if I were using 2E AD&D rules), I would throw nish when the first punch occured. But, what got me about the new rules is that I needed Bad Guy #1 to have the spear up to granny's neck, ready to kill her. If I don't do that, then one of the PC's could win nish, charge him, and get in an attack before he could spear granny.

That didn't seem right to me.

So, I figured I'd roll nish as soon as the two parties saw each other. I'm willing to change when I roll it, but I don't think I'll allow a PC to move 60' and swing a the bad guy before he can put the spear point through grandma.

Plus, what I have planned after this encounter (this encounter turns into a chase scene--so I can't have the PCs saving grandma too early) rides on the Bad Guy controlling the situation. And, he can controll it if he's got that spear to grandma's neck. The players should hesitate at that because the grandma character is a beloved NPC to the players.

Yes, you are right. It got me a while to get used to it. The you can't ready an action out of combat rule is an annoying one- but it is a fair one. There is no rule about when you should roll for initiative, since the players may just come close and not attack. But its like that, if you let the PCs ask for initiative, then you won't be able to ready an action in time. Its better to play in rounds, even if it means having everyone talk in his round.

 

[Water Bob]

Its better to play in rounds, even if it means having everyone talk in his round.

That's what I was thinking. I figure the PCs are going to be giving it all they have climbing up the grade and running down the road because they will fear what has happened--the NPCs they really like have been attacked.

They won't approach in stealth because they'll be getting there as fast as they can.

This tips Bad Guy #1 to put his spear to grandma's throat.

I'll roll nish. The players won't know what for. Then, I'll bring out the map and tell them, quickly, what they see, putting the pressure on the first PC to go (since one bad guy will be finishing putting the javelin through granny's hand, then leveling his spear at her throat).

I think it will add to the drama if I quickly describe the scene they've come upon. I mean, they'll be running up to it. "Everybody roll nish. OK, Silaigne goes first. You're leading the way, your clansmen behind you. You're breathing hard because you just ran up the side of the grade. Your heart is pumping in your temples.

"You made the dirt trail and pounded your feet to get where you are at this very second (point at location on the map). The road bends, gently. There's a kid lying, motionless up head of you. You can't tell who it is or whether its a boy or girl. There's a wagon on its side. Both donkeys are down. One has a spear or a javelin sticking out of its neck. Just behind the wagon, you see a Grath warrior, his hand raised high, as he slams a javelin down into the ground. At this second, you can't see what he's standing over, because he's partially obscurrred by the wagon.

"He sees you, that's for sure. He's looking right at you.

"At this very second, you're running as fast as you can. Sweat rolls down your cheek. You feel like your lungs will explode through your rib cage.

"What do you want to do. You've got initiative. Do you stop? Do you keep running? All of this I've told you, you saw in the blink of an eye--a partial second.

"It's your move. What are you going to do?"




On the Grath's turn, he'll pull a spear from the ground. He has it stuck, point first, into the dirt next to him, within easy reach. I figure this akin to pulling a weapon from a sheath, so it's a free action.

He'll flip it, quick, and jerk it to Stenna's (who've I've been calling "grandma" in this thread) throat, using a Ready Action to run her through. The action will be triggered by any PC passing the wagon.

"Hold there, mate. Or ye'll be using your clansman here to stuff your burial mound." He'll say, between lips that twist in a snarl, through teeth that all look to be sharpened to points.





So....what's going on with the second Grath, hiding behind the wagon? I want him to stand up and throw a javelin if a PC gets close to the wagon. I can't use a ready action, though, since he can't see the trigger.

I could have the one Grath, that the PCs can see, instruct his hidden companion to throw at a certain point. But, this gets tricky since we're in combat rounds. The Grath can't act except on their round, and the first Grath (out in the open) has already readied one action (Or, I'd ready the command to let loose the javelin).

Another thing I could do, I guess, is to allow the hidden Grath to see through the boards of the upturned wagon. But, if I do this, I think, in order to be a fair GM, that I need to allow the PCs a chance to notice that he's there. I could consider the wagon as concealment or cover and give the hidden Grath a +4 to his Hide check. Then, I'd roll Spots for the three PCs coming up the trail.

Still, I'm not sure when to roll initiative for this character. I need to read that pg. 23 of the DMG reference someone mentioned above.

It would seem to me that this character would enter the combat on any nish number he desires, as if he were using a Delay action.

The quetions is, though: Does he catch anybody flat-footed?

 

[anest1s]

So....what's going on with the second Grath, hiding behind the wagon? I want him to stand up and throw a javelin if a PC gets close to the wagon. I can't use a ready action, though, since he can't see the trigger.

Listen Check It won't be that hard, since I don't think the Pcs will move silently.

Still, I'm not sure when to roll initiative for this character. I need to read that pg. 23 of the DMG reference someone mentioned above.

It would seem to me that this character would enter the combat on any nish number he desires, as if he were using a Delay action.

The quetions is, though: Does he catch anybody flat-footed?

Roll initiative at the beginning, and just ready every turn. Its way easier. Since he is still and behind full cover (if its full cover) the PCs wont hear or spot him; he will catch flat-footed anyone who won't go around the wagon.

If you use the Delay, you will play just after the PC will end his turn, meaning he will see you before your turn, so he won't be flat-footed. If you ready action though, you act before him.

 

[Water Bob]

Listen Check It won't be that hard, since I don't think the Pcs will move silently.

Ohhhhh....good suggestion. See, my inexperience with this set of rules is showing. Excellent thought. Fits what I see in my mind's eye.

Plus, I realized just a moment ago that surprise wouldn't help the hidden Grath anyway. If he's crouching down behind the up-sided wagon, I think it's only fair to count his standing up as I would someone standing up from prone. That's a standard action. Thus, with a Surprise round, there'd be no time left for the attack.

Roll initiative at the beginning, and just ready every turn. Its way easier.

Yeah, I think that's the way to go. Just roll for everybody and play it out, having the two Grath use ready actions.

Since he is still and behind full cover (if its full cover) the PCs wont hear or spot him; he will catch flat-footed anyone who won't go around the wagon.

Now, help me, here. If the hidden Grath gets his action triggered on Round 2, he won't catch anyone flat-footed, right? They should be able to completely defend themselves even though they don't know he's there.

Right?

 

[anest1s]

Ohhhhh....good suggestion. See, my inexperience with this set of rules is showing. Excellent thought. Fits what I see in my mind's eye.

Plus, I realized just a moment ago that surprise wouldn't help the hidden Grath anyway. If he's crouching down behind the up-sided wagon, I think it's only fair to count his standing up as I would someone standing up from prone. That's a standard action. Thus, with a Surprise round, there'd be no time left for the attack.






Yeah, I think that's the way to go. Just roll for everybody and play it out, having the two Grath use ready actions.





Now, help me, here. If the hidden Grath gets his action triggered on Round 2, he won't catch anyone flat-footed, right? They should be able to completely defend themselves even though they don't know he's there.

Right?

Ok I think maybe I am wrong. Flat-footness/losing your Dex to AC always confused me. I better let someone else reply to that.

Standing from prone is move action though.