D&D 5E Surprise!

[Zaruthustran]

One of the great things about 5E is the whole "rulings not rules" philosophy. So I'd like to query my fellow DMs' ruling on a vague rule: surprise.

The rules text is on page 189.

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

My key takeaways from the above are:

1. DM determines.
2. In order for there to be Surprise, at least one side has to "try to be stealthy."
3. Any creature that doesn't notice a threat is surprised.

So here's my questions to the group. In which of these scenarios is it possible for Surprise to occur?

1. AMBUSH. Character makes Dex (Stealth) check to hide behind tree and wait for monster.
2. FOREST SNEAK. Character makes Dex (Stealth) check to sneak through forest and approach monster.
3. CROWD SNEAK. Character makes Dex (Stealth) check to blend with crowd and approach enemy.
4. CROWD BLEND. Character makes Cha (Deception) check to blend with crowd and approach enemy.
5. ANONYMOUS DISGUISE. Character makes Cha (Deception) check to disguise himself as a generic harmless NPC (commoner, laborer, guard, anything the target wouldn't normally consider a threat), then attacks target when he is in range.
6. SPECIFIC DISGUISE. Character makes Cha (Deception) check to disguise himself as an NPC that's trusted by the target (specific person), then attacks target when he is in range.
7. SPELL DISGUISE. As 5 or 6 above, but using Disguise Self spell. No Dex or other check is made--just the Disguise Self spell (assume the target does not use its action to inspect the character).
8. BETRAYAL (aka, THE RED WEDDING). Character suddenly, and without provocation, attacks the well-known trusted ally sitting beside him at dinner (or during some other calm, noncombat situation). No Dex or other check is made.
9. ASSASSIN'S CREED. Character calmly strolls down crowded street toward target, with no visible weapons displayed, and suddenly attacks when in range. No Dex or other check is made.
10. SANDMAN. Character approaches and stabs sleeping target. No Dex or other check is made.
11. INVISIBLE MAN. Character is invisible and standing still, and attacks when target gets within range. No Dex or other check is made.
12. POOF. Character scries target, teleports to target and attacks. No Dex or other check is made.
13. POOF 2. Character is sorcerer, in a crowded city street, and uses Subtle Spell to conjure monsters adjacent to target (without somatic or verbal components). No Dex or other check is made.
14. PIT. Character falls through hidden pit trap into pit of skeletons, who've all been set to stare upward and attack first thing they see. No Dex or other check is made.

As you can see, these scenarios play with the 2nd ("try to be stealthy") and 3rd ("creature doesn't notice a threat") takeaways. I'm most curious how this community treats scenarios 5-9, where the target is aware of the character (or at least, not unaware) but does not recognize him as a threat.

In other words, does disguise/deception satisfy the "trying to be stealthy" requirement? Does betrayal? In the case of the pit, or teleporting from 100 miles away and attacking the target from thin air, does surprise (the mundane definition of the word) count as Surprise?

All of the above rely on takeaway 1, "DM determines." So DMs: what determination do you give to the above?

 

[Zaruthustran]

The too long; didn't read version is: do Doppelgangers get Surprise when they attack?

 

[SirAntoine]

If it makes sense for someone to be surprised, that is applied without considering stealth or passive perception. These examples of yours are legitimate other factors which would compel the DM to grant surprise. The procedure is "DM decides," and if it comes down to stealth being used, then passive perception is suggested as the DC. Realistically, the approached party should be able to make active perception rolls, though. The rule makes a shortcut. Most of the time, maybe it works well, but for a serious encounter I recommend using active perception when stealth is necessary.

 

[Paraxis]

My take.

• The DM determines who might be surprised.

This is explaining that the DM uses the following rules/guidelines to determine surprise. Mostly a fluff sentence used to reinforce rule 0.

• If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other.

This doesn't use the language, hidden or "takes the hide action" so it leaves surprise open to all kinds of situations that count as stealthy, like shooting the guy under a table you are talking to with your blaster...er I mean hand crossbow.

• Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side.

This gives the default method of determining surprise, it is skill check vs a passive skill resolution. So we could use Deceptions vs passive Insight, Disguise vs passive Perceptions/Investigation, or other not so obvious combinations players like to dream up.

• Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

This tells us what happens when the passive skill of the creatures not trying to be sneaky are compared to the sneaky characters skill result. This also seems to indicate you have to notice ALL the threats in the encounter, if there is three groups and your passive is high enough to notice only two of them you are still surprised at the start of combat.

• If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.

This is what surprise is and surprisingly people seem to get this wrong while playing 5e, as they bring baggage from past editions to the game. Everyone involved in the combat rolls for initiative at the start of combat. A surprised individual can actually go first and has a turn, they just can't move or take any actions on that turn. This affects things like some rogue abilities, or special spell or zone effects that trigger off of the start of your turn or your turn ending.


I would never allow surprise without some kind of skill check vs a passive notice skill. In the examples the OP lists as no check I would use Deception vs Insight in most of them. Some like the pit trap would just be straight up initiative rolls without the chance for surprise.

Never forget as a DM if you feel like giving advantage/disadvantage to ability checks like initiative that is well within the scope of your duties/powers. So if you feel someone might not be surprised but still a little slow on the uptake give the other side advantage on initiative, if you feel someone was totally caught off guard with their pants down and surprised give them disadvantage on the initiative roll.

 

[SuperFluid]

This is what surprise is and surprisingly people seem to get this wrong while playing 5e, as they bring baggage from past editions to the game. Everyone involved in the combat rolls for initiative at the start of combat. A surprised individual can actually go first and has a turn, they just can't move or take any actions on that turn. This affects things like some rogue abilities, or special spell or zone effects that trigger off of the start of your turn or your turn ending.

Oh snap, I would have totally got this wrong! SO you can still take a bonus action that is really neat. Its not a 3.5 Surprise round its a surprised character

 

[Leatherhead]

Here is what I do:

• Determine the intent to attack.
  One side, or more, wants to hurt somebody. This is the easy part, anyone who is on guard duty, in hostile territory, or has a sufficiently negative option of the people they are looking at, is automatically considered
  to meet this mark. Anyone who is on this list gets to make opposed checks VS people trying to ambush.
• Determine if the intent to attack is obfuscated in some way.
  There are three easy questions to look for:
  Are they Hiding? (using stealth or perhaps being in a box of some kind)
  Are they Bluffing? (using deception or a disguise)
  Do they not look like they are there to kill? (Armed/armored, guards, thugs, roaming wizard hooligans, your best friend, ect)
  If the answer to any of those questions is yes, then they can gain surprise.
• And finally determine if surprise is especially advantageous to someone (like an Assassin)
  If it is, double check for any reason it could work, then roll for it anyway, just to be fair.

 

[Paraxis]

Oh snap, I would have totally got this wrong! SO you can still take a bonus action that is really neat. Its not a 3.5 Surprise round its a surprised character

Bonus actions are still actions, otherwise things like the incapacitated condition would allow for bonus actions too.
This is the last line from the section on bonus actions, "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action."

So there is no surprise round, but if you are surprised you can't take any type of action or move on your first turn. What this means is some abilities like a rogue assassin gaining advantage on attacks against those that have not taken their turn yet are affected if the surprised creature rolls higher initiative than the assassin, and spells like moonbeam that do damage when you start your turn in the area will still damage you on your turn if you are surprised.

 

[Nebulous]

I just want to mention the Alert feat, which the Rogue can get, which means he can NEVER be surprised. That said, in some circumstances I still think it would be unavoidable, such as an armed doppleganger who you think is your friend suddenly stabs you in the back. Unless we're looking at "Alert" as more akin to "Spidey Sense"

Has this come up in anyone's game with a rogue arguably being in a situation where he could not avoid being surprised? I don't want to nerf the benefits of a whole feat, I'm just talking about niche cases.

 

[Paraxis]

I just want to mention the Alert feat, which the Rogue can get, which means he can NEVER be surprised. That said, in some circumstances I still think it would be unavoidable, such as an armed doppleganger who you think is your friend suddenly stabs you in the back. Unless we're looking at "Alert" as more akin to "Spidey Sense"

Has this come up in anyone's game with a rogue arguably being in a situation where he could not avoid being surprised? I don't want to nerf the benefits of a whole feat, I'm just talking about niche cases.

ALERT
Always on the lookout for danger, you gain the following benefits:
-You gain a +5 bonus to initiative.
-You can't be surprised while you are conscious.
-Other creatures don't gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.

It is "spidey sense", while conscious you can't be surprised. If the doppelganger chooses to attack you while you are awake you react in time, hopefully rolling higher than him in initiative and drop him before he ever makes a single attack. He should have waited to attack such an alert person when they went to sleep.

Taking away the immunity to surprise would be like taking away either of the other benefits, like saying "No Joe, this time you don't get the +5 to initiative." or "This enemy was extra hidden so he does get advantage on the attack against you.".

As a DM could you/should you make exceptions to absolute abilities like this? I say sure but only under the absolute most extreme conditions that might come up once in an entire campaign. Take a Fire Giants ability "fire immunity" a very absolute clear cut power, most things that exist and can do damage with fire the giant completely ignores, like wading in lava, an ancient red dragons breath weapon, fire magics cast by the most powerful spellcasters. But to demonstrate how amazingly hot a fire gods blasts are you might want to have one melt a fire giant for the purposes of the story, that is the kind of thing that might get around a characters Alert feat ability. Loki could surprise him if he put some divine thought to the matter, but not a doppelganger assassin.

 

[ExploderWizard]

If it makes sense for someone to be surprised, that is applied without considering stealth or passive perception. These examples of yours are legitimate other factors which would compel the DM to grant surprise. The procedure is "DM decides," and if it comes down to stealth being used, then passive perception is suggested as the DC. Realistically, the approached party should be able to make active perception rolls, though. The rule makes a shortcut. Most of the time, maybe it works well, but for a serious encounter I recommend using active perception when stealth is necessary.

I would use either active or passive depending on the situation. If the surprised party was in the dungeon or other dangerous area then I would generally go with an active check. For a surprised group sitting around at an inn relaxing and having a few drinks, I would use passive.