Surprising the GM, or, Random Content in Dungeons

[Sword of Spirit]

I designed the very first adventure for our on-going campaign using the random dungeon generator at the back of the 5e DMG. I can't remember which parts I pre-established (other than the prelude that culminates in the PCs each being sucked through a portal from their different home worlds and deposited in the bottom of the dungeon) and which elements I made sense of afterwards. But I do know that I used the tables pretty faithfully for the map, and made a 4 level dungeon temple complex. If I recall, I first made all the rooms, using the random maps and contents rules, and then "ruined" the dungeon. I had half of one of the floors collapse into the floor below, and I went through and rerolled the contents of rooms to determine how their usage had changed from the original (I think that part was actually from the DMG). I do know that for this particular dungeon I selected what types of monsters would be present during the non-random phase, as well as creating random encounter tables for each floor (or area) and figuring out how everything worked (where did creatures get food and water, where did their waste go, etc). However, I think I did go with the room generation tables as far as which rooms had monsters or other hazards in them. I don't think I had to overule the dice much at all after putting some creative interpretative polish on to it.

I really like the way it turned out. I'm actually converting it to an RPGMaker game so my players can enjoy it again with some good old fashion SNES style tech.

I love using random encounters and events and such. I use them extensively. My rules of the realm are that anything that has been firmly established by me (either by simply acknowledging published lore as accurate, or by actual design) is true for the world, whether the players know it or not. I do not allow myself to alter that on the fly (or even in advance, without a very compelling reason, like a got a new book with conflicting lore and I have to decide which (if either) version I want to go with). When I introduce new elements, they are introduced in context of the already established world. This firm foundation for what exists actually makes it easier to use random tables to add content, because that content is already constrained by clear boundaries and isn't going to create chaos the way it otherwise might.

I was going to explain that last sentence more, but it hit me that there is something deeper going on there (cue tangent). It occurs to me that sometimes when people disagree about the value of certain stylistic play elements, it can be influenced by not seeing the whole picture of how various other elements fit together. To appreciate different ways of role-playing, you kind of have to have a complete picture of what is going on--you can't just assume element X is added to your current play style. For instance, if one's normal style is to customize the adventure to the players and characters, then adding in randomness might seem like more trouble than it's worth. Now you just have something that you have to put extra work into customizing. Whereas, if you don't customize anything to the players or their characters, random content is great (assuming good random generation) at making a world interesting while reducing creative load on you (freeing it up for other areas).

Tangentially, one fun thing I'm wanting to try with 5e is a totally random adventure (designed from random tables in the DMG) with totally random PCs. The idea is the players get together and roll up some random characters, and everything is random. Class, race, skills, feats, gear, name, etc. I'm even using Xanathar's Guide to Everything to roll detailed random backstories for the characters. I figure the best way is to make a number of characters equal to the players + 1, and then let them choose their characters from the options. I already rolled up one totally random character, and she turned out a completely workable character, so I have high hopes for it actually working.

All that being said, I think doing an adventure that is completely randomized on the go would be difficult. The biggest issue is simply physical dimensions. Trying to fit randomly sized rooms into a dungeon without time to work with would be a pain (it would be easier in a more vaguely defined environment like a city). I don't know that that particular element would be worth it. But if you had the physical dungeon drawn up and you simply randomized the contents of the rooms on the go, that's completely doable. Or what might be more fun would be to pre-map a variety of room-complexes (let's say they all take up a 200'x200' area) and then during play randomly roll which room complex is next when you get to the edge of the map.

The key is to determine what role random content is intended to play in the game, and then find out the most efficient way to use it in that role.

 

[GMMichael]

I am pretty sure that most versions of the DMG have random dungeon generators in them- or at least the DMGs from odd-numbered editions do.

My 3rd ed. DMG provided a map, but no room generator. I have a vague recollection of an included map that resembled something from HeroQuest, but sadly, I think that's been lost to the sands of time.

Tangentially, one fun thing I'm wanting to try with 5e is a totally random adventure (designed from random tables in the DMG) with totally random PCs. The idea is the players get together and roll up some random characters, and everything is random. Class, race, skills, feats, gear, name, etc. I'm even using Xanathar's Guide to Everything to roll detailed random backstories for the characters. I figure the best way is to make a number of characters equal to the players + 1, and then let them choose their characters from the options. I already rolled up one totally random character, and she turned out a completely workable character, so I have high hopes for it actually working.

All that being said, I think doing an adventure that is completely randomized on the go would be difficult. The biggest issue is simply physical dimensions. Trying to fit randomly sized rooms into a dungeon without time to work with would be a pain (it would be easier in a more vaguely defined environment like a city). I don't know that that particular element would be worth it. But if you had the physical dungeon drawn up and you simply randomized the contents of the rooms on the go, that's completely doable. Or what might be more fun would be to pre-map a variety of room-complexes (let's say they all take up a 200'x200' area) and then during play randomly roll which room complex is next when you get to the edge of the map.

The key is to determine what role random content is intended to play in the game, and then find out the most efficient way to use it in that role.

Let us know how that random everything adventure goes. I think one of the keys for keeping players on board is that you don't keep them waiting while generating randomness - as long as it flows, they won't have time to complain.

I don't see randomly-sized rooms as a problem. In fact, many of the professional "dungeon" maps I've seen look like they could have been randomly generated instead of architect-designed. So it shouldn't be too much of a stretch of the imagination. The roles idea, at least the way I'm interpreting it, sounds like a real time-saver. For example, you can roll on a stuff table ten times and fill a new room with that random stuff, or you can roll on a role table and find out that the room is a kitchen, and have a stereotypical idea of what's already in the room with just one roll...

 

[Imaculata]

I love random content in my campaigns, but I am a strong opponent of randomly created dungeons. I think proper dungeons require care and thought, and shouldn't be just a bunch of randomly created rooms thrown together by an algorithm or dice. There is a finesse in dungeon design that cannot be created randomly. A philosophy and theme if you will. Plus random dungeons tend to be very flat and limited in the complexity of their lay outs.

Now this is different for videogames of course, where randomly created dungeons in a game like Diablo are perfectly fine. But such games are simple slogs through monster filled mazes. In D&D I think dungeons can be (and should be) a little bit more than that. Granted, that is just my personal taste.

However, what you can do is randomize treasures in a clever way. I make custom loot tables for dungeons, that also include things such as a key, or a locked chest. I then improvise what the key is for. Maybe it unlocks that randomly rolled locked chest, or maybe it unlocks a door somewhere in the dungeon.

I also sometimes randomize inscriptions on walls. Just flavor stuff that I use to make a boring corridor not so boring.

 

[pemerton]

have you seen or used a random dungeon generator?

Yes. Here is the actual play write-up.

 

[GrahamWills]

I’ve had good success asking players to make up situations and then adjudicating them. Saying “what sort of challenge might lurk in the disused warehouse?” is an easy way to generate some good ideas and spread the imagination workload out. Random tables are ok for ideas, but players are much better as they know their characters and are liable to come up with situations far better tied into the game.

One of my favorites sessions was meant to be a short aside: When I asked players what might be in a cave where they are sheltering from the storm, and the answer came back “a gateway to hell”

 

[Lanefan]

I love random content in my campaigns, but I am a strong opponent of randomly created dungeons. I think proper dungeons require care and thought, and shouldn't be just a bunch of randomly created rooms thrown together by an algorithm or dice. There is a finesse in dungeon design that cannot be created randomly. A philosophy and theme if you will. Plus random dungeons tend to be very flat and limited in the complexity of their lay outs.

The flatness can be tweaked by simply saying that every xth (10th? 20th?) passage/room roll is replaced with a vertical element if one hasn't naturally occurred in the last x rolls. Complexity isn't a problem IME: the only time I ever really tried a fully random dungeon it kept looping back on itself.

For normal dungeons I wouldn't go full random. But for one-offs, or if the party's in the Plane of Chaos or some other sort of madhouse situation then hells yeah, baby!

 

[Hand of Evil]

AEG Toolbox - random tables for everything under the sun.

 

[GMMichael]

Now this is different for videogames of course, where randomly created dungeons in a game like Diablo are perfectly fine. But such games are simple slogs through monster filled mazes. In D&D I think dungeons can be (and should be) a little bit more than that. Granted, that is just my personal taste.

Agreed, but what if your players get to the signpost that says "Cyclops Dungeon Ahead," and they hold a quick meeting, deciding that they need more XP and an easier dungeon first?

Who am I kidding? I haven't seen players make a plan in a long time...

Complexity isn't a problem IME: the only time I ever really tried a fully random dungeon it kept looping back on itself.

This, also, sounds awesome. Except something's a little different every time the loop completes. Hmmm...

AEG Toolbox - random tables for everything under the sun.

Cool book. Have you tried it? Did it fill gaps or create problems?

 

[Hand of Evil]

Cool book. Have you tried it? Did it fill gaps or create problems?

yes have used it and have found it creating plot hooks that the keep the players busy and active in the setting.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

I think one of the keys for keeping players on board is that you don't keep them waiting while generating randomness - as long as it flows, they won't have time to complain.

This is critical. I one time tried to generate a Freebooters on the Frontier (OSR-ish dungeon world hack) dungeon at the table at a con. Last time for that. While the players rolled, it was still too much time waiting for stuff to show up.