Swapping SWSE Skills Into D20 Modern

[Zephrin the Lost]

Anyone else tried this?

I don't feel that the range of classes, feats, etc in Saga are suitable for a Modern-setting adventure, but love the ease of the skill system, so I'm thinking I could just wedge that onto the D20 rules, dropping the current skill system. This also lets me continue to use the equipment, creatures and other resources from D20 past, modern, future, etc.

I would choose a Saga class as an analogue for a modern class (so Strong and Tough heroes get Soldier skills, Charismatic get Noble, Smart get Scoundrel, etc), replace the Saga Knowledge with the D20 Knowledges, remove all feats that add +2 to a couple of skills and replace with Skill Focus from Star Wars, remove Use the Force..and, I think I'm done.

One issue is Saga skills like Intimidate work against the target's will defense, but I'm betting the target's D20 Modern Will Save +10 will be close enough.

So what jumps out at you guys as potential problems?

--Z

 

[ValhallaGH]

So what jumps out at you guys as potential problems?

--Z

Starting Occupations.
Skill points. Seriously, think over what they are and what they should be for the class's archetypal characters.
Dedicated Heroes (who currently have a blend of Soldier, Noble and Scoundrel skills).
Tough Heroes (who currently have a blend of Soldier and Scoundrel skills).
Multi-classing. SAGA generally discouraged it, Modern strives to make it mandatory.
Having to spend precious feats to gain new skills.
Climb, Jump and Swim as separate skills. Lump them into a generic Athletics skill and be done with it. Individually, those skills just aren't good enough to make them worth the resource cost of acquisition, but together they are a great skill that any adventurer should have.

One issue is Saga skills like Intimidate work against the target's will defense, but I'm betting the target's D20 Modern Will Save +10 will be close enough.

Just have them oppose with a Persuasion (intimidate), Perception (sense motive), or Will Save, as normal for d20 Modern. Big, scary Tough heroes shouldn't be easy to scare, which 10 + Will would be.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Very helpful. I could just reconfigure the skills to be better matches for the the six basic classes, but there are dozens of prestige classes and handling it on a case-by-case basis means my players would have to ask me what the options are before deciding on a class.

Well, I'm closer to having a list of issues I could try and address. Any more thoughts?

--G

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Oh, and this for certain:

"Climb, Jump and Swim as separate skills. Lump them into a generic Athletics skill and be done with it. Individually, those skills just aren't good enough to make them worth the resource cost of acquisition, but together they are a great skill that any adventurer should have."

--Z

 

[drothgery]

Multi-classing. SAGA generally discouraged it, Modern strives to make it mandatory.

Huh? I don't think there's a class & levels d20 game that's more multi-class friendly than SWSE.

Having to spend precious feats to gain new skills.

Again, huh? Feats may be precious to non-fighters in D&D 3.x, but in SWSE or d20 Modern, they're not. You've got tons of them.

I mean, clearly you add skill training and skill focus to every class bonus feat list, and ditch all the +2/+2 feats.

I'd say something that's likely to be problematic is the way the profession skill (which is gone) interacts with the wealth system.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Very helpful. I could just reconfigure the skills to be better matches for the the six basic classes, but there are dozens of prestige classes and handling it on a case-by-case basis means my players would have to ask me what the options are before deciding on a class.

Well, I'm closer to having a list of issues I could try and address. Any more thoughts?

Yep. Don't worry about class skills for advanced and prestige classes. Saga doesn't and neither should you. The only way to get more class skills is by base class multi-classing. You'll have to rewrite the prerequisites but the non-base classes shouldn't grant more class skills; they already give more action points and really spiffy class features, that's plenty nice enough.

So, you only need to do skill assignment for 6 classes and starting occupations.
Starting occupations can work like skill traits for the SWSE races, granting rerolls, taking 10, and free skill focus when trained in the skill, in addition to or instead of providing additional class skills. Or occupations can work like base Modern and give you more class skills and a couple bonus feats.

So your skill breakdown might look like this:
Strong - Athletics, Endurance, Initiative, Knowledge (tactics), Mechanics
Fast - Acrobatics, Initiative, Knowledge (galactic lore), Mechanics, Pilot, Ride, Stealth
Tough - Athletics, Endurance, Knowledge (galactic lore, tactics), Perception, Pilot, Ride, Survival
Smart - Knowledge, Mechanics, Perception, Use Computer
Dedicated - Knowledge, Perception, Survival, Treat Injury
Charismatic - Deception, Gather Information, Knowledge, Persuasion
So a Strong Hero has a good number of options but might only have 2 + skills (+1 for humans). Fast probably has 3 +, same for Tough. Smart heroes should have 6 +, Dedicated probably 4 +, and Charismatic might have 5 + skill points. So an all human campaign would grant 3+ for Strong, 4+ for Fast and Tough, 5+ for Dedicated, 6+ for Charismatic, and 7+ for Smart heroes. That seems about right for those types.
Then you've got to decide how you want starting occupations to work. My advice is to use a mix of various abilities; some occupations give bonus class skills, others give free skill focus if a certain skill is trained, others give the ability to reroll and take the better, and a couple give the ability to take 10 even when under stress.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Huh? I don't think there's a class & levels d20 game that's more multi-class friendly than SWSE.

My Ace Pilot disagrees, sir. He's about to have trouble hitting barns, with all his BAB penalties and the barns' steadily increasing defenses.

That said, it's not overly restrictive, and it avoids the silly favored class / xp penalty system.

Again, huh? Feats may be precious to non-fighters in D&D 3.x, but in SWSE or d20 Modern, they're not. You've got tons of them.

And it's never enough. I'm usually wanting about five more so that my character can do what he was supposed to be able to do from his (pre-game, GM approved) back story. I don't want more levels (usually), just more feats.
I've got a couple character concepts / builds that require seven feats per level to work properly, scaling their abilities to match their increasing raw power.

I mean, clearly you add skill training and skill focus to every class bonus feat list, and ditch all the +2/+2 feats.

Well, yes. It's so obvious I forgot to mention it. Good call.

I'd say something that's likely to be problematic is the way the profession skill (which is gone) interacts with the wealth system.

Yeah, I was just starting to think about that.
And Perform, while mechanically weak, is a fun and flavorful skill. ... Which tells me what should be done with it, namely making performances a bit of flavor text for characters that are supposed to have it, just like painting, haiku or flower arranging would be.

 

[drothgery]

My Ace Pilot disagrees, sir. He's about to have trouble hitting barns, with all his BAB penalties and the barns' steadily increasing defenses.

That said, it's not overly restrictive, and it avoids the silly favored class / xp penalty system.

Yeah, but that's a stock d20 houserule to fix as much as it can be (use fractional BAB, or in its simplified for SWSE form, levels in 3/4 BAB classes stack for BAB; that plus the very common house rule of allowing Skill Training in a new class skill as one of the options for the starting feat you get from multiclassing makes SWSE extraordinarily multiclass-friendly). Beyond that, if a bad guy's staying around for more than two or three rounds in melee with your high-level Jedi or in ranged combat with your high-level soldier, an Ace Pilot's not going to get very far trying to pick that guy off with his sidearm, multiclass BAB issues or no. That's when you break out autofire, grenades, and/or aid another. Or run back to your ship and lay down some covering fire.

 

[arscott]

My advice:

Don't blindly use the SW skills.

Instead, look through the list of D20 Modern skills and combine them in ways that mimic the SW implementation. Steal the SW mechanics when appropriate, but be wary of circumstances where they'll interact weirdly with the rest of the d20 modern system.

I devised a list of Saga-ized skills for modern a while back. I remember it ditched knowledge categories entirely (something which later showed up in 4e), and included skills suited to the more down-to-earth, low combat games that I like to run (including academics, art, and investigate)

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

This has given me a lot to think over. I posted the same question over at D20 radio and it was suggested there that I bring the condition track in as well.

I guess my main motivation is to try and get skill challenges into Modern and with the current skill system it just doesn't work. Everyone would always spam that one skill they have put the most into and never try anything they have put no points into.

My group mostly uses Modern for one-shots and side games, so I don't need a perfect fit. It's not like we'll be running a long campaign with it.

When I decide on a solution I'll post it here.

--Z