Swapping SWSE Skills Into D20 Modern

[Armadillo]

I don't feel that the range of classes, feats, etc in Saga are suitable for a Modern-setting adventure, but love the ease of the skill system, so I'm thinking I could just wedge that onto the D20 rules, dropping the current skill system. This also lets me continue to use the equipment, creatures and other resources from D20 past, modern, future, etc.

Why is this? Most of the Saga classes would seem to work for a modern setting. Scout and, of course, Jedi seem to be the only ones that don't fit. And, there might be a way to rework Scout. It seems like it would be easier to import what you like about d20M into Saga than to do it the other way around.

 

[ValhallaGH]

This has given me a lot to think over. I posted the same question over at D20 radio and it was suggested there that I bring the condition track in as well.

I guess my main motivation is to try and get skill challenges into Modern and with the current skill system it just doesn't work. Everyone would always spam that one skill they have put the most into and never try anything they have put no points into.

My group mostly uses Modern for one-shots and side games, so I don't need a perfect fit. It's not like we'll be running a long campaign with it.

When I decide on a solution I'll post it here.

Then you may actually want to take a look at this supplement (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=24732&it=1). I dislike actively pimping my own work, but I wrote those rules specifically to deal with exactly the same issues you're encountering, namely a lack of skills sufficient for the level of heroic action I wanted in my games, including skill challenges. Bonus, you don't have to replace a chapter in your core modern book, just a few pages.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Why is this? Most of the Saga classes would seem to work for a modern setting. Scout and, of course, Jedi seem to be the only ones that don't fit. And, there might be a way to rework Scout. It seems like it would be easier to import what you like about d20M into Saga than to do it the other way around.

SWSE seems to lack the non-combat depth of D20 modern. We use modern for everything that's not killing monsters with swords and spells, such as COC-style games, old-west setting adventures (with Sidewinder: Reloaded material), and some space marine sessions we've run. Saga would be fine for the space marine game, but for CoC and other more investigative and less combat-oriented games, I think everyone would be a noble with maybe a few scoundrels, but once the computers go away, that's less attractive as well.

And I really want to add 4e-style skill challenges to these already skill-heavy games. I've already used those in Saga and they work great and are a great fit.

I also have a lot of Modern/Future/Past resources I want to continue to rely upon. I had thought switching skills would be simple enough. It now seems it might be trickier than I had imagined, but I still believe there's a good solution in there.

--Z

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Then you may actually want to take a look at this supplement (http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=24732&it=1). I dislike actively pimping my own work, but I wrote those rules specifically to deal with exactly the same issues you're encountering, namely a lack of skills sufficient for the level of heroic action I wanted in my games, including skill challenges. Bonus, you don't have to replace a chapter in your core modern book, just a few pages.

Got it! Good product!

This is very interesting- I could use the skill groups from this product and apply the SWSE skill rules to them- so treat the groups a character can acquire through classes and starting occupation as trained, the rest are untrained and all scale with level progression. his lets me keep the D20 modern skills, but in a less complicated array. It also handles stating occupations and advanced classes and what skills they bring.

I may build a couple of PC's using that idea to see what they look like. Thanks!

--Z

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

...and one more.

GM Chris over at the great D20 Radio forums suggested the following for moving non-skill based Saga material into Modern:

"You know? I'd do this. I'd nix the Defense Bonuses for each class, as well as the saves... and make it such:

Strong Hero: +1 Fort Def, +1 Ref Def, +1 Will Def
Fast Hero: +2 Ref Def, +1 Fort Def
Tough Hero: +2 Fort Def, +1 Ref Def
Smart Hero: +2 Will Def, +1 Ref Def
Dedicated Hero: +2 Will Def, +1 Fort Def
Charismatic Hero: +2 Will Def, +1 Ref Def

That'd be the "starting defense bonuses" - then I'd just use the SWSE formula, all defenses are 10+character level+ability mod+starting bonus.

I'd have armor work the same way as in SWSE as well (with the armor trees available to Strong and Tough heroes).

Meh. My 2 credits."

The armor idea is a real kicker- I'll have to try this and see how my level 8 dreadnought fares. He's pretty unstoppable right now using just D20 modern/future.

--Z

 

[ValhallaGH]

Got it! Good product!

This is very interesting- I could use the skill groups from this product and apply the SWSE skill rules to them- so treat the groups a character can acquire through classes and starting occupation as trained, the rest are untrained and all scale with level progression. his lets me keep the D20 modern skills, but in a less complicated array. It also handles stating occupations and advanced classes and what skills they bring.

I may build a couple of PC's using that idea to see what they look like. Thanks!

--Z

You're welcome. I'm glad that you like it and that it was helpful. Good luck.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

Using Postmodern: Skill Groups to give a SWSE/4E feel to D20 Modern

Okay, so my goal here is to mimic SWSE Edition /4e D&D skill mechanics for D20 Modern. I want characters to have some ability to use most skills, as the do in Saga (so 1/2 level bonus to all skills, trained or untrained). This should encourage players to use a wider variety of skills more often, and will also allow me to use 4e style skill challenges, which I think are a fantastic fit for Modern (and SWSE, but no changes are needed to do that).

ValhallaGH turned me on to this: (http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_i...s_id=24732&it=1) which takes the 40-odd skills of D20 modern and collapses them into skill groups, sort of like what SWSE does (so taking the Stealth group lets you move silently, hide and use sleight of hand). Using those groups just as SWSE uses its own groups allows an approximation of the same effect. So PC's know many more skills, but none of their skills will be quite as high as if they maxed a few skills using the traditional D20 Modern rules.

Here's my guidelines for using D20 Modern Skill groups to get a SWSE effect:

1. Characters gain access skill groups as described in the Skill Groups PDF by Postmodern.
2. Being trained in a skill means +3 to that skill.
3. They may choose 3 skills + Int mod from any group they have access to through starting occupation or class.
4. Players also add ½ their character level to each trained skill, as well as any skill that can be tried untrained.
5. Characters can only choose skill groups at 1st level, as in SWSE edition. However, they can use the SWSE feat Skill Training to add trained skills from eligible skill groups whenever they are able to choose that feat.
6. The SWSE Feat Skill Training is available whenever a character would be eligible to take a bonus feat, and allows the character to choose 3+inti modifier skills from any skill group they are eligible to take as trained.
7. Players may also use Skill Training to acquire training in skill groups outside of their class options. These skill groups are cross-class and the bonus on skills is +2.
8. Levels taken in a advanced class add the skill groups associated with the new class to the characters list of eligible skills, but they do not count these skills as trained until they take the Skill training feat.
9. The SWSE edition feat Skill Focus is NOT available.
10. All D20 modern feats that add +2 to two skills remain available.

 

[ValhallaGH]

That will probably work pretty well.
Total skill bonuses will be a little low (1/2 level + 3 or 1/2 level + 2) compared to the core rules (level + 3) but the shear breadth of skills should work pretty well to compensate. And remembering to adjust DCs to reflect the fact that one of the world's leading experts in any given field isn't going to have a higher modifier than about +18, and most skilled professionals will have about a +8 bonus.

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

That's interesting... so a classic 10th level pc with an 18 in the relevant ability and a +2 bonus from the proper feat will have a +19 on any skill he has maxed out.

By my '4e simulator', he would have at best a 14.

At level 20, the difference is more profound, with classic PC weighing in at 29 (20+3+4+2)and my method showing a 19 (10+3+4+2).

Still, for my purposes, I don't foresee us playing many games above level 10, so it's not much of an issue. There's also a ton of ways to get equipment bonuses to many skills in the game, so my DC adjustments don't have to be too precise.

Thanks for the feedback and for doing all that skill grouping work (so i don't have to!)

--G