Swarms vs Swarm....

[Primitive Screwhead]

Its a day of odd-ball questions for me, and while I think I have one figured out.. this one is stumping me to no end.

Scenario: Wizard being attacked by a Swarm of Bats.

Wizard summons a Swarm to combat the Swarm.......

??????????? okay. How to rule this one?
Can both Swarms Engulf each other, dealing mutual damage until one of them dies out?
Do the Swarms but up against each other, not able to enter the others space, but cause damge on the abutting lines?
Do natural food chains come into play? eg, Bats vs Mosquitoes..

Thanks in advance for your help uncurdling my brain

 

[Corlon]

they just eat each other. Treat em as the two creatures they are.


If a swarm of mosquitoes has 20 times the amount as bats...doesn't relaly help the bats all that much

 

[dvvega]

Further contemplation has informed me that I was rambling silly things.

D

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Eating each Other...

Corlon.. one issue with that answer.. that just popped up..

If Swarm A Engulfs and is chewing on Swarm B, who had Engulfed said Wizard... Wizard gets chewed on by *both* swarms.

Why is this a bad thing? because the next combat, Wizard wisely decided to use 2 of his own Swarms to get some nasty damage by having his Swarms engulf each other...on his target...

I am leaning towards having the edges contact and 'fight', dealing half of the Swarms damage to each adjoining enemy Swarms...and half to itself.

Dvvega.. Ramblings?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

More Ramblings...

After talking it over with my local freinds, I slightly revised the above:

On the Swarms action, it can press into a neighboring Swarm, dealing half of its Engulf damage to the target Swarm, and half to itself. The action takes 5' of movement but the attacking Swarm does not move into the defending Swarms space.

[essentially, it tries to Engulf, and fails...]

Thoughts?

 

[the Jester]

Hmm... if a 'swarm' attack counts as weapon damage, then won't they do less damage to each other, or even potentially no damage? Swarms, after all, are immune to or suffer less than normal weapon damage, right?

So... the two swarms of mosquitos or whatever fine creatures can overlap, don't hurt each other, but do lay the double whammy on any creatures engulfed...?

If this is the case, is there a limit to how many swarms can engulf the same space? Can I summon 1000 spider swarms and have them all attack the same square? Why not, if swarms can overlap?

Hmmm... are swarms subject to the distraction ability of other swarms?

This is actually a very thought-provoking subject.

 

[Pbartender]

Hmm... if a 'swarm' attack counts as weapon damage, then won't they do less damage to each other, or even potentially no damage? Swarms, after all, are immune to or suffer less than normal weapon damage, right?

They take 1/2 damage from slashing and piercing attacks. Most Swarms will be using bite, claw or sting attacks, and therefore deal only half damage to each other.

So... the two swarms of mosquitos or whatever fine creatures can overlap...

Correct.

...don't hurt each other...

They'll probably deal half damage to each other.

...but do lay the double whammy on any creatures engulfed...?

Correct.

If this is the case, is there a limit to how many swarms can engulf the same space? Can I summon 1000 spider swarms and have them all attack the same square? Why not, if swarms can overlap?

This is always, of course, up to DM adjudication and common sense.

First, the description of Swarms clearly implicates that you shouldn't have more than one type of Swarm in any particular area. More Swarms only make the total Swarm bigger, not more dense.

Second, if you start putting different Swarms on top of each other, you quickly begin to reach a practicle limit... The Swarms begin working against each other; they're all dealing damage to each other, and can be subject to each others poison (and other special abilities). Too many Swarms and they kill each other off in a single round.

Hmmm... are swarms subject to the distraction ability of other swarms?

So long as the Swarm is made of living creatures, yes.

 

[apesamongus]

Second, if you start putting different Swarms on top of each other, you quickly begin to reach a practicle limit... The Swarms begin working against each other; they're all dealing damage to each other, and can be subject to each others poison (and other special abilities). Too many Swarms and they kill each other off in a single round.

Actually, can swarms (made of tiny or smaller creatures) even damage each other?

 

[Voldrath]

If youve ever seen ant's fighting this is what it would look like.
I'm not up on the swarm rules verry well but from a real world standpoint here goes.
I would say the swarms would engulf eachother, as well as anything else in their respective areas, doing damage per the swarm attack to the other swarm and anything else unlucky enough to be stuck in the overlap. I don't see why they should dammage themselves.
so in the case of wizard a swarm b and swarm c.

b bc c

b bca c

i would have swarm b do swarm damage to wiz a and swarm c
swarm c do swarm dammage to wiz a and swarm b
and wiz a make saves for both distraction effects.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

and then there was Creeping Doom...

So, a 14th level Druids favorite spell becomes Creeping doom...

Allowing him to summon in 7 Centipede Swarms, each with 31 hps, and stack them on the enemy spell caster.. dealing a total of 14D6 of unavoidable damage + distraction and Ability Damaging poison... (the odds of failing at least one of the 7 checks is pretty high...)

Sure, the first two swarms might get eaten up, but that leaves only 10D6 damage the next round....

..... so, the big questions are:
Can a creature Engulf another creature who has the Engulf ability?
If so, what is the limit for recursive Engulfments?