switching a versatile weapon between 1h and 2h, what action?

[elecgraystone]

If you use a heavy shield you're 'punished' for needing to drink a potion - you have to sheath your weapon, take out the potion, drink it, and... oh, you're done, that's three minor actions: a full round to drink a potion, and you're unarmed until you can draw your weapon again. If you want to look silly, you can drop your weapon, pull out the potion, drink it, then pick your weapon back up - still takes all round.

Big difference. Sword and shield users have things in both hands and as you point out they have to use minor actions. All a swordmage needs is a minor action and 2 free actions but somehow he's treated as if his hand is full all round? You are trying to equate 3 minor actions to a minor and two free but they just don't take the same amount of time. I still see it as an extreme reaction to +1 damage.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Nope, I'm equating class features.

Paladins & Fighters are defenders and get heavy shield proficiency free, even if they don't meet the preqs. That's two feats worth of defense for a defender class. It gives them +2 AC, at the price of having one less hand free. It also gives +2 REF, but with little use for DEX and none for INT, that doesn't give them a very high REF.

Swordmages are defenders and get a special Ward that gives them +1 AC, +3 if they're only using one hand for other things. That's a +2 difference in AC for giving up the use of a hand in combat. (They don't get the REF of a shield, but with INT being an important stat, they're REF will be just fine for a defender).

Shields are the /only/ item in the game that takes more than a free action to drop or a minor action to begin wielding, making switching items around - using a potion or throwing a weapon while still keeping a primary weapon in hand, for instance - much less convienient for such characters.

If it's so 'wrong' to 'punish' the swordmage for needing to drink a potion, wouldn't it be equally 'wrong' to 'punish' the other two defenders for the same thing?

 

[Zsig]

I'm not sure that kind of comparison is really that relevant, otherwise you'll have to consider lots of other facts since you're not being fair, like for instance, both the Paladin and Fighter have powers that allows them to regenerate and/or spend healing surges to heal or even give them temporary HP, the Swordmage doesn't.

If said Fighter/Paladin drops in battle, once he's up again, he still got his shield, the same is not true for the Swordmage, so he gotta stand up and tough all the time, he simply cannot afford to go down.

 

[elecgraystone]

Tony Vargas, in an effort to 'punish' swordmages from doing something you don't thing they should, you 'punish' all swordmages not just those using versatile weapons. Dare to drink a potion, pull on a rope, open a door or throw a dagger and you lose 2 AC until your next round? Seems lame to me.

As far as equating class features does a fighter or a paladin lose there shield bonus if they drink a potion? Lose it the rest of the encounter in they fall unconscious? You are equating shields with a Ward. The creators made it hard to put on a shield and easy to drop what's in your hand. Both seem reasonable as is.

Bottom line it DOES seem very 'wrong' to 'punish' someone for needing a free hand the entire round to get the full bonus. Would you make a fighter wait until the next round to get the bonus from his shield? Or wait until next round before he could attack with a new weapon he just pulled out? Why time delay magic warding when mundane bonuses activate the instant the object is ready?

 

[Tony Vargas]

It may seem 'lame' to you, but if a feature comes with a restriction, it's just as lame to ignore that restriction.

 

[keterys]

You don't need to "punish them" for doing anything else - you can just say that it's a free action to wield or cease to wield a weapon in two hands. And you can take that free action once per round.

And you'd even be within the RAW and FAQ in doing so, as the limit on how many free actions, especially of the same type, that you can do is limited by the DM. It's a judgement call based on how much it impacts the rest of your turn. The example I used in another thread is that saying "four" or "score" is a free action, but reciting the full Gettysburg address is not a free action you can perform on your turn but one that takes many turns. Similarly, it's a free action to drop something, so if you have two hundred marbles in your hand and you drop them one by one while counting, that's a _lot_ of free actions and likely takes all of your actions for many combat rounds to perform.

 

[Danceofmasks]

That's cool in theory, but then would you allow a player to downgrade their minor for a second use of the grip-switching free?

 

[elecgraystone]

SO just how many free actions do you limit the character to? Any other free actions other than switching grips? And if you allow more than one free action per round then why not 2 grip changes?

In you own words keterys, "four" or "score" are free actions. Would you only be able to say one or the other? "four score" pushed the free actions for the round too far? Not for me. Switching your grip twice isn't in the same as dropping 200 items. 2 grip changes isn't '_lot_ of free actions'.

To Tony Vargas, the feature does indeed come with a restriction. You, however, are trying to add a new one to it. That's what is lame, not the restriction the feature already has. Your 'fix' effects swordmages that aren't even using the versatile weapon trick to get that awesome +1 damage.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, to be fair, # of free actions in a round is one of those few places in 4e where it's actually up to the DM to draw the line.
(That's right, I'm a rules lawyer that considers random ignorance of RAW = crap DM)
So, there will be DMs out there that draw the line at once a round.

Which is actually not that bad a deal still, if the trick ends up costing a minor in addition to a free, folks would still do it and it won't seem quite as cheesy.

 

[elecgraystone]

Seems odd to me to limit free actions to once per round or once per kind of action. If I'm fighting with two weapons, it'd take a free AND a minor to drop both weapons? The same if I wanted to say something to two people? If not why only grips? They all time the same amount of time to do.

I have no problem with stopping the 'two hundred marble' drop' or the 'full Gettysburg address'. There SHOULD be a limit when you do enough free action that it takes you a minor to finish them all. I don't think that limit is two however. While the grip change for swordmages might be 'cheesy', I don't see it as the least bit powerful and I don't see it taking more than 2 free actions to do. Like what Tony Vargas wanted to do, this solution affects more people than the person that MIGHT use the cheesy tactic. Is fixing the 'problem' of one whole extra point of damage worth limiting everyone to 1 free action?