Switching the Role of classes with minor tweaks?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Here is an idea I head before - It seems that some classes get their role most prominently by getting class features specific to it and not so much with individual powers.

So, for which classes might this work?

Here is an idea for the Fighter:
Replace Combat Challenge, Weapon Talent and Combat Superiority with the following versions:

Combat Challenge
When you hit an opponent with an attack, you can challenge him. Until you choose a different target, you gain a +1 bonus to all attack rolls against that target.

Weapon Talent
Pick either One Handed or Two-Handed Weapon mastery.
o One Handed Weapon: You gain a damage bonus with all one handed weapons.
o Two Handed Weapon Mastery: You gain a damage bonus with all two-handed weapons.

The damage bonus depends on the weapon group of the weapon. If the weapon has more than one group, choose the better of the weapons.
Axe, Hammer, Mace or Pick: Add your constitution bonus to damage.
Flail, Heavy Blade, Light Blade or Spear: Add your dexterity bonus to damage.
Polearm, Staff, Unarmed: Add your wisdom bonus to damage.
Increase these bonuses by +2 at 11th level and by +4 at 21st level.

Combat Superiority
You may add your Wisdom bonus to defense against all opportunity attacks.

 

[Bronze_Dragon]

Cool ideas; I really like the changes. However, I'd disagree with you that class features are what make a class the role it is. The powers often show what type of role the class is; many defender powers are gimped compared to striker powers, in my opinion, since that isn't their focus. Also, other basic things such as amount of health gained per level, equipment proficiencies, and feats all nudge the role of the class to what it currently is. These changes would probably work for the fighter, and make the fighter a hybrid striker/defender, but I don't think they'll have as great of an effect as you think they will.

 

[Flipguarder]

A problem i see is that some classes simply don't work well for this idea. For instance the earthstrength warden is a defender, secondary controller. But if you attempt to modify it into a controller, he lacks the range necessary to perform the task reasonably. And if you try to make him a striker his powers simply don't do enough damage to work. He can't be a leader without significant power and class feature changes.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A problem i see is that some classes simply don't work well for this idea. For instance the earthstrength warden is a defender, secondary controller. But if you attempt to modify it into a controller, he lacks the range necessary to perform the task reasonably. And if you try to make him a striker his powers simply don't do enough damage to work. He can't be a leader without significant power and class feature changes.

Oh, I agree. It doesn't work for every class. Probably not even the most. But it might for some. (Maybe "some" is merely Fighter and Swordmage. Those are the classes I have some basic ideas so far )

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd watch giving the fighter extra damage-boosting striker powers. They're already pretty potent in the striker role, and they only really lack mobility.

The next problem is this: one of the big things that defenders have is lots of hitpoints and surges. So you'd probably need to work on those to make any striker a defender, and they should probably be reduced if you're turning a defender into a striker (or just don't boost mobility and assume that they soak OAs into their surges/hps).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'd watch giving the fighter extra damage-boosting striker powers. They're already pretty potent in the striker role, and they only really lack mobility.

The next problem is this: one of the big things that defenders have is lots of hitpoints and surges. So you'd probably need to work on those to make any striker a defender, and they should probably be reduced if you're turning a defender into a striker (or just don't boost mobility and assume that they soak OAs into their surges/hps).

Hmm. I already thought about reducing the healing surges and hit points. That was a logical choice. But the mobility aspect you bring up is interesting. Combat Superiority (in the Striker Redux version) already helps there, but generally there is probably a lack of "move and strike" and "resist movement hindering abilities" in the Fighters repertoire. Maybe a new class feature is required:
Combat Mobility
Once per turn you can reroll a save or an athletics check to resist an effect that slows, immobilizes or restrains you, or ignore the first square of difficult terrain you enter during your turn.

 

[keterys]

Well, Pass Forward, (the minor move 3 to get adjacent to an enemy one), Passing Attack, Tempest Dance, etc all have some mobility.

My bigger concern is that you're basing it on a stat, so that means that he'll deal more damage than the ranger (who only gets his damage once per round) on multiple attack situations. Similar to comparing warlocks and sorcerers, really.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, Pass Forward, (the minor move 3 to get adjacent to an enemy one), Passing Attack, Tempest Dance, etc all have some mobility.

My bigger concern is that you're basing it on a stat, so that means that he'll deal more damage than the ranger (who only gets his damage once per round) on multiple attack situations. Similar to comparing warlocks and sorcerers, really.

Design by Symmetry on my side. The reason I did it this way was because I didn't want "Hunter's Quarry II" or "Sneak Attack II", and so the logical result was that the damage bonus by secondary ability score.

A possibly limitation one could add might be to limit the damage bonus only against one target, like the Monks Flurry of Blows.

 

[keterys]

Yeah - I mean, I actually like the flexible stat choice based on weapon and think it works great for the class. And I kinda wish, say, warlocks didn't work the way they do.

But it's worth bringing up as a possible problem

 

[Saeviomagy]

Combat Mobility
Once per turn you can reroll a save or an athletics check to resist an effect that slows, immobilizes or restrains you, or ignore the first square of difficult terrain you enter during your turn.

That's not really the mobility that's a problem. I don't think fighters really get significantly fewer ways to deal with these sort of situations than existing strikers do. I was purely thinking in terms of OAs, and your "add wisdom mod vs OA" covers the mobility that a striker fighter might need.

My first point was that I think you're not giving the base fighter enough credit for the damage he can deal, and that boosting that further is dangerous.

My second point was that they have too much survivability: they should either retain their current surges and hitpoints OR get the wisdom-to-OA bonus, not both.