Swordmage Class

[Felon]

Which is what WotC did with the Battle Sorcerer. Medium BAB, HD d8, light armor (no ASF), Simple + One Martial Weapon, cast spells as a Sorcerer (1 less spell known per level, 1 less spell per day per level).

Best arcane/warrior combo I've see for 3.5. Very customisable and without any mandatory style of play (unlike the Hexblade, Duskblade, etc).

As mentioned by Natalie, the battle sorcerer can easily wind up hemmed into a prescribed style of play. Medium BAB, d8 HD, light armor proficiency, and proficiency with a single martial weapon doesn't really make for much of a warrior--it's basically a ranger without combat styles or favored enemies. With its reduced number of spells known (which isn't a very large number to begin with), the class has an even worse tendency than the spellsword or eldritch knight to find itself pulled towards being a half-arsed warrior who tosses a lot of arcane self-buffs to cover the spread.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

See, that's why I want a Battle Wizard. Enough spells known to choose either uility spells for the day, or to focus on combat spells to be effective in melee -- but not enough spells per day to do both at the same time.

It seems like the existing classes or prestige classes that tackle this role do a good job optimizing for one end of the spectrum or other (warrior or mage), but only manage to pull off middle ground for a specific niche approach (like the duskblade and his melee attacks). I'm still looking for a flexible middle of the road warrior-mage ... like the old Elf class, but without overshadowing everyone else.

 

[GhostTiger]

See, that's why I want a Battle Wizard. Enough spells known to choose either uility spells for the day, or to focus on combat spells to be effective in melee -- but not enough spells per day to do both at the same time.

It seems like the existing classes or prestige classes that tackle this role do a good job optimizing for one end of the spectrum or other (warrior or mage), but only manage to pull off middle ground for a specific niche approach (like the duskblade and his melee attacks). I'm still looking for a flexible middle of the road warrior-mage ... like the old Elf class, but without overshadowing everyone else.

One sacred cow of D&D I'd love to see slain, and there's no way it will ever be, is the all-or-nothing BAB. I'm running a gestalt campaign now, which solves the problems being discussed here, but I've been tinkering with the idea of a core class Warrior Mage that has a fighter BAB, BUT ONLY FOR HIS BONDED WEAPON, otherwise Simple Weapon proficiency with a wizard BAB. A limited spell list along the lines of the Suel Arcanamach PrC, maybe the Spellsword Channel spell ability (neat idea I've always liked). And that's it. Maybe. lol

 

[Varianor Abroad]

The AE mageblade's weapon (which he also uses to cast spells) gets a special enhancement bonus for him only. So his BAB is not fighter progression (it's rogue IIRC), but he gets about the equivalent to hit as a fighter and he can cast spells in his armor.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

See, that's why I want a Battle Wizard. Enough spells known to choose either uility spells for the day, or to focus on combat spells to be effective in melee -- but not enough spells per day to do both at the same time.

It seems like the existing classes or prestige classes that tackle this role do a good job optimizing for one end of the spectrum or other (warrior or mage), but only manage to pull off middle ground for a specific niche approach (like the duskblade and his melee attacks). I'm still looking for a flexible middle of the road warrior-mage ... like the old Elf class, but without overshadowing everyone else.

Just out of curiosity, and because you got my puzzle complex working...lets look at a hypothetical warrior-mage class with some flexibility, and what we'd need for that.

- Mageblade (Arcana Unearthed): provides the concept of a personal melee weapon that gets enhanced with levels, and special effects like calling it at higher levels. Provides magical shielding and the ability to slice through others shields.

- Arcane Archer (DMG): provides the personal ranged weapon concept with enhancements, and the ability to send touch spells through arrows.

- Duskblade (PHB II): provides the ability to cast in armor, to send touch spells through melee weapons, and to quick-cast spells in combat at higher levels. Also to overcome spell resistance of opponents he hurt in combat.

So I'd take a basic frame of d8 HD, medium BAB, good Fort OR Will save, a handful of class skills, 2+Int bonus skill points per level, all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor proficiency, and small and medium shields. The Armored Caster I'd apply in spell failure chance percentage to be ignored, starting at 10% and going up, kinda like the Spellsword from Tome & Blood did I think. Then I'd see how to tack on the other stuff. The "personal weapon" shtick would be a general concept, to be applied to either a ranged or a melee weapon, as the player prefers. The rest should be not a problem to be tacked on at the levels they are. Maybe shift them around a little to avoid overloaded levels. Bonus feats i'm not sure about, since the combined class abilities should be already pretty sufficiant to make the class potent.

To that, I'd add sorcerer caster levels 2/3, starting at Apprentice level casting so you only get your bonus spells at 1st levels, adding Eschew Material Components in one variant or another so the spell component bit is taken care of. That way, a 20th level character would get access to 7th level spells.

If you want a more studied version, replace the sorcerer with wizard caster levels. Adds worrying about components and spellbook, but also a greater flexibility in your magic.

Would that be a class you'd consider worthwhile?

Accidentally, if you switch out some of those with divinely inspired powers, you can make a nice cleric variant.

 

[Klaus]

As mentioned by Natalie, the battle sorcerer can easily wind up hemmed into a prescribed style of play. Medium BAB, d8 HD, light armor proficiency, and proficiency with a single martial weapon doesn't really make for much of a warrior--it's basically a ranger without combat styles or favored enemies. With its reduced number of spells known (which isn't a very large number to begin with), the class has an even worse tendency than the spellsword or eldritch knight to find itself pulled towards being a half-arsed warrior who tosses a lot of arcane self-buffs to cover the spread.

I can't agree with that. Light armor, Medium BAB and HD d8 is equal to a Cleric. Simple weapons plus one Martial weapon is *better* that the cleric. What the cleric gets on top of that is Medium and Heavy armor and shields. And why does the clerc get that? because he gets non-exciting spells. Which the Sorcerer gets.

As for the spell table, I applied the Battle Sorcerer changes to the Sorcerer entry of the SRD, and let me tell you, it gets enough spells to go around.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

As for the spell table, I applied the Battle Sorcerer changes to the Sorcerer entry of the SRD, and let me tell you, it gets enough spells to go around.

If you mean spells per day, I'd agree .. but not spells known. The fourth level battle sorcerer, for example, still only knows 2 1st-level and 1 2d level spell. At sixth level, when third level spells are gained, it's 3/1/1. I'd personally prefer a few more spells known in the lower level progression to provide flexibility.

So I'd take a basic frame of d8 HD, medium BAB, good Fort OR Will save, a handful of class skills, 2+Int bonus skill points per level, all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor proficiency, and small and medium shields. The Armored Caster I'd apply in spell failure chance percentage to be ignored, starting at 10% and going up, kinda like the Spellsword from Tome & Blood did I think. Then I'd see how to tack on the other stuff. The "personal weapon" shtick would be a general concept, to be applied to either a ranged or a melee weapon, as the player prefers. The rest should be not a problem to be tacked on at the levels they are. Maybe shift them around a little to avoid overloaded levels. Bonus feats i'm not sure about, since the combined class abilities should be already pretty sufficiant to make the class potent.

To that, I'd add sorcerer caster levels 2/3, starting at Apprentice level casting so you only get your bonus spells at 1st levels, adding Eschew Material Components in one variant or another so the spell component bit is taken care of. That way, a 20th level character would get access to 7th level spells.

Using wizard progression and 3/4 spellcasting (so you get 15 levels in 20) and I'd like it.

So perhaps something like (admittedly 3.5 mechanics since we don't know much about 4E):

HD: d8

Skill Points: 2 + Int per level X4 at 1st level
Class skills: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int) and Swim (Str).

Weapon Prof: All simple & martial

Armor Prof: Light armor, medium armor, shields (except tower shield)

BAB: Medium (as cleric)

Fort: Poor
Ref: Poor
Will: Good

Abiliites:

1st: Armored Caster (ignore 10% ASF), Spellcasting Option (Wiz or Sorc), Spellcasting level 1
2nd: Weapon Focus, Spellcasting level 2
3rd: Scribe Scroll or Eschew Materials
4th: Spellcasting level 3
5th: Combat Casting, Spellcasting level 4
6th: Arcane Channel (Focus Weapon)
7th: Spellcasting level 5
8th: Armored Caster (20%), Spellcasting level 6
9th: Greater Weapon Focus, Spellcasting level 7
10th: Weapon Specialization, Spellcasting level 8
11th: Spellcasting level 9
12th: Spellcasting level 10
13th: Arcane Channel (full attack)
14th: Bonus feat, spellcasting level 11
15th: Spellcasting level 12
16th: Armored Caster (30%), Greater Weapon Specialization
17th: Spellcasting level 13
18th: Spellcasting level 14
19th: Armored Caster (40%)
20th: Spellcasting level 15

Armored Caster: At 1st (and subsequent) levels, the warrior mage may ignore up to a maximum percentage of arcane spell failure chance. This applies only to spells cast from warrior-mage levels.

Spellcasting option: At 1st level, the Warrior-Mage chooses if he will cast spells as a wizard or sorcerer. This determines the key ability for spellcasting (Int or Cha), determines if spells must be prepared or cast spontaneously, and determines the table ussed for spells known and spells per day. Once chosen, this cannot be changed. Warrior-Mage levels do not stack with other arcane spellcasting classes when determining caster level, spells per day, etc.

Spellcasting level: At each indicated level, the warrior-mage has spells known/per day as a wizard or sorcerer of the indicated level (depending on the spellcasting option chosen). Warrior-Mage levels do not stack with other arcane spellcasting classes when determining caster level, spells per day, etc.


Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc: Per the feat. These must all be applied to a single weapon type. The warrior-mage may not take weapon specilization as a feat gained through character levels.

Scribe Scroll/Eschew Materials: The warrior-mage choses one of these bonus feats at 3rd level.

Arcane Channel: Per the duskblade ability. This applies to the warrior-mage's focus weapon only, but is not limited to melee weapons.

Ends up with BAB +15 (+2 to hit and +4 damage from bonus feats, though) and CL 15 with 8th level spells (assuming a wizard progression)arriving at level 20. Not as "optimal" BAB and CL-wise as some of the warrior-mage paths that can be done with prestige classes, but there should be enough perqs to encourage sticking with the same class progression.

It probably needs its ability list tweaked as it is a bit more generous than duskblade (I don't have my PHB II handy). Free Weapon Focus/Specialization make up some for the medium BAB over time, but only with a single weapon. There's probably some re-balancing that should be done, too, to reduce the amount of breakage that could occur when mixed with certain feats or prestige classes. For example, the +1 arcane spellcastign class should only give spell progression as a wiz/sorc, but the spell levels in warrior-mage shouldn't stack with those from wizard or sorcerer, nor should the ASF reduction work with pure wizard or sorcerer levels, to prevent a 2-3-level dip in the class followed by wiz/sorc levels. But then a highly competent power-gamer can probably break any set of mechanics, so it may not be worth worrying about too much.

For 4E ... tweak the spell progression to capture whatever a new wizard looks like breaking down at will, per encounter, and per day abilities.

Edit: added ability explanations and shifted spellcasting progression slightly to avoid dipping.

Balance comparison:

[sblock]
Vs. Fighter:
- Lower HD (-21 HP on average)
- Lower BAB (gives up +5 BAB and 1 iterative attack)
- Worse Fort, better Will save
- Fewer feats/abilities with less flexibility (4 combat feats, 3 arcane feats, 2 special abilities that scale vs. 11 fighter bonus feats)
- Less weapon flexibility (only able to specialize in a single weapon)
- Broader skill list
- No heavy armor or tower shield
- Spellcasting
Overall: Probably mroe attractive than a single-classed fighter.

Vs. Wizard (assumes wizard progression)
- Better HD (+44 HP on average)
- Better BAB (+5 BAB, third iterative attack)
- Same Save
- 2 fewer arcane feat options, but 4 combat feats and two special abilities including casting in armor
- Armor proficiency and martial weapon prof
- Slower spellcasting progression
- -5 caster levels, no 9th level spell access
- No familiar
- Broader skill list
Overall, probably balanced against a single-classed wizard

Vs. Sorcerer (assumes sorcerer progression)
- Better HD (+44 HP on average)
- Better BAB (+5 BAB, third iterative attack)
- Same Save
- Adds 3 arcane feats, but 4 combat feats and two special abilities including casting in armor
- Armor proficiency and martial weapon prof
- Slower spellcasting progression
- -5 caster levels, no 8th or 9th level spell access
- No familiar
- Broader skill list
Overall: probably balanced, but a bit more attractive compared to pure sorcerer ve pure wizard

Vs. Battle Sorcerer assumes sorcerer progression
- Same HD, BAB, Saves
- Slightly broader skill list
- Adds medium armor and all martial weapons
- Adds 3 arcane feats, 4 combat feats, 2 special abilities
- No familiar
- More spells known/per day, but slower progression to higher level spells
- -5 caster levels; no 8th/9th level spells
Overall: probably balanced, depending on the value of the 5 caster levels vs the additional abilities.

Vs. Cleric
- Same BAB
- Same HD
- Worse Saves
- -5 CL, no 9th level spells
- No domains or turn undead, (3 special abilities cleric vs 4 combat feat, 3 arcane feats, 2 special abilities)
- No heavy armor proficiency
- Martial weapon proficiency
- Weapon focus/specialization
- Vastly different spell list
- Both cast in armor (except heavy for the warrior-mage)
Overall: Cleric has roughly equivalent melee abilities and more spell development so is probably more powerful in the end, but the WM can make up in blasting ability. Close match.

Vs. Duskblade
- Same HD
- Worse BAB (-5 BAB and one less iterative attack), made up slightly by focus feats
- Worse Saves
- No neavy armor proficiency
- Similar casting in armor, but gained later
- No quick cast ability or spell power (2 arcane feats probably balanced against spell power)
- Broader spell list, higher level spells, and quicker access to higher level spells, but fewer spells per day and down 5 caster levels
- Same arcane chanelling except not limited to melee, but initial ability gained later
- Virtually identical skill list
Overall: Better in net spellcasting power & flexibility but worse in focused melee and integrated spell/melee ability. Pretty close overall.


Vs. Fighter10/Wizard10 multiclass (assumes wizard progression)
- Same BAB
- Better Will, worse Fort save
- Better HP on average (~+20)
- No heavy armor/tower shield
- +5 Caster levels & +3 spell levels
- Equal feat/special abilities -- including highly useful casting in armor
- No familiar
Overall: Much better than the pure multiclass -- but the pure multiclass is as sub-optimal as you can get.

Vs. Optimized Fighter/Wizard/PrC mix
- Lower BAB (best mixes get +17-+18
- Lower caster level (best mixes get 17-18 with 9th level spells)
- Weapon Specialization
- Similar special abilities (depends on the specific PrC mix)
- Similar, perhaps better HD (depends on specific PrC mix)
- Worse saves
Overall: Weaker than a 20-level fully min-maxed PrC mix, but better integrated.[/sblock]

Edit 2: Posted to the House Rules Forum for more discussion of this class idea specifically.

 

[Mercule]

With all the oddball assorted bits that have been named off by WotC, I wouldn't count any particular class as gospel, yet.

Unless this "swordmage" brings something to the table besides being a powered-up fighter/mage multiclass, I hope they leave it as vapor. My hope for 4E is that there are no base classes, ala duskblade, paladin, scout, or even spellthief. Actually, my real hope includes no PrCs that are just there to gird a multiclass. Ultimate magus, eldritch knight, and mystic theurge have to go. Arcane trickster is iffy, but might be acceptable.

I the only purpose of the class is to facilitate the cross between two other classes, just fix the freakin' multiclass rules.

 

[Merlion]

I can't agree with that. Light armor, Medium BAB and HD d8 is equal to a Cleric. Simple weapons plus one Martial weapon is *better* that the cleric. What the cleric gets on top of that is Medium and Heavy armor and shields. And why does the clerc get that? because he gets non-exciting spells. Which the Sorcerer gets.

As for the spell table, I applied the Battle Sorcerer changes to the Sorcerer entry of the SRD, and let me tell you, it gets enough spells to go around.

The Cleric also gets good Fort and Will saves (generally the most important) far more spells per day, and gets his entire spell list as spells known.

And you may find Cleric spells "non-exciting" but especially in combination with the Clerics other features, they are very powerful and useful.

The Cleric is far and away the most powerful, and especially the most resilient, class in the PH.

The Battlesorcerer deal from UA is pretty nice, especially in overall concept execution, but mechanically it doesnt do that great a job. Mainly because it gets almost no known spells.

 

[Merlion]

With all the oddball assorted bits that have been named off by WotC, I wouldn't count any particular class as gospel, yet.

Unless this "swordmage" brings something to the table besides being a powered-up fighter/mage multiclass, I hope they leave it as vapor. My hope for 4E is that there are no base classes, ala duskblade, paladin, scout, or even spellthief. Actually, my real hope includes no PrCs that are just there to gird a multiclass. Ultimate magus, eldritch knight, and mystic theurge have to go. Arcane trickster is iffy, but might be acceptable.

I the only purpose of the class is to facilitate the cross between two other classes, just fix the freakin' multiclass rules.

The trouble with this is, many classes that some see as existing to facilitate a cross between two other classes are in fact there own classes and there own archtype seperate from any similar to a whatever/whatever.


Wether a warrior/mage base class is one such I dont know for sure, but I'd have no objection to it. Of course I like more base classes, as long as they arent totally reptitive or mostly with archtypal support.