Swordmage: Isn't it a little bit unbalanced?

HSwordmage things require you to be fully functional (have to be able to take those immideates or the abilities don't work) and require a to hit roll (which can let you down at the most inconvenient of times.) Even when I'm having a sucky dice night my paladin can ruin the day of the bad guys just by good positioning/targeting on my part.
Oh, no argument - the paladin mark is unsurpassed when the defender is in a bad way. The hospitaler rider is fairly supreme on top of that. Nobody compares favorably to significant non-surge healing as a non-action rider atop a defender mark that's triggered regardless of whether or not the enemy attack connects. It's a hell of a trump card.

Suggesting that swordmages aren't worth the trouble because they don't have anything similar isn't really fair. They have a significant bag of tricks available. They can be responsible for enemies - not necessarily marked enemies, at that - having a very bad day.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

But it's not just the hospitalidins mark that I find makes my SM envious/feel underwhelming. The Fighter (sword and board or pole-arm either one) and the warden as well both seem far superior to the SM (haven't even looked hard at the psionic defender).

To me the swordmage is at best 4th among my favorite defender classes - even lower if you count different builds of fighter as seperate classes.

Perhaps there are things in unuseable books that would change my mind (we do nothing from dragon for instance although all the phb's and complete power books are available) but no dragon magazine is needed to make the other defenders fun/effective for me so I wouldn't think the sm would require it either.
 

Maybe it's just the way you look at it.

The Swordmage is the least "stand in the door" defender. Sure, he can do it, but it's not where he excels. My Assault Swordmage is like the Coast Guard Rescue Diver in the middle of the hurricane rather than the shall not pass doorman. Dimensional Vortex is simply awesome at dropping baddy crits on their own guys instead. Dimensional Warp lets me teleport an allied character out and put my swordmage right in the heart of it. My mobility and defenses let me get in the BBEG controller's face and take what he can dish out while the party wipes out his protection. Lightning Lure lets me yank baddies away from allies I don't have marked so ranged characters can lay the smack down in close. (or pulling aura-wielding baddies away from vulnerable allies while my resistances shrug off most or all of it)

Having a defender doesn't mean nobody else takes hits, they just take fewer hits. Expecting the defender to take "all" the damage is poor resource utilization. There's also more to it than damage, and comparing an 18th-level to an 8th-level character is almost like comparing pomegranites to pistachios.
 

Maybe it's just the way you look at it.

The Swordmage is the least "stand in the door" defender. Sure, he can do it, but it's not where he excels. My Assault Swordmage is like the Coast Guard Rescue Diver in the middle of the hurricane rather than the shall not pass doorman. Dimensional Vortex is simply awesome at dropping baddy crits on their own guys instead. Dimensional Warp lets me teleport an allied character out and put my swordmage right in the heart of it. My mobility and defenses let me get in the BBEG controller's face and take what he can dish out while the party wipes out his protection. Lightning Lure lets me yank baddies away from allies I don't have marked so ranged characters can lay the smack down in close. (or pulling aura-wielding baddies away from vulnerable allies while my resistances shrug off most or all of it)

Having a defender doesn't mean nobody else takes hits, they just take fewer hits. Expecting the defender to take "all" the damage is poor resource utilization. There's also more to it than damage, and comparing an 18th-level to an 8th-level character is almost like comparing pomegranites to pistachios.

1) I have never expected to take all the hits on any of my defenders I have played - I'm not sure where you got that idea.
2) I do not compare my 18th level paladin to my 7th/8th lvl swordmage. I compare how effective my swordmage is to how effective my paladin was.
3) Dimensional vortex has been singularly underwhelming to me. it is a great ability when it hits. Unfortunately more often than not i wind up eating an attack of opportunity from the guy I'm papercutting to death and I wind up missing the vortex attack.

I do enjoy the mobility of the swordmage but the defenderyness of the class is underwhelming to me.

Just as an aside my DM's comment was "I judge a defender by how annoying he is and aside from a couple of times when you teleported someone with dimensional vortex the swordmage isn't really that annoying"
 

A swordmage may be worse at locking an enemy down, but that's not what he should be doing anyway.

A shielding swordmage should simply mark one enemy and then get the hell away from it, letting it run amok among his allies while taking huge chunks of it's damage away.
 

A swordmage may be worse at locking an enemy down, but that's not what he should be doing anyway.

A shielding swordmage should simply mark one enemy and then get the hell away from it, letting it run amok among his allies while taking huge chunks of it's damage away.

Except he can't. He gets his interrupt ONCE per round, on ONE instance of damage. The fire-breathing monster that just torched 5 of your party? You just prevented 10 damage...to one ally. Yay? Okay you used your special to do it again. Great, now you can't do it for another day. And that's assuming he didn't catch you in the explosion, in which case you did nothing.

The monster still dropped 30 damage on everyone and 20 on the one you protected. How is this protecting your allies?

Even if you limit the hypothetical attack to a single ally, that's 10 damage taken out of 30 once per round. If the enemy spends an action point or does something else, you're all out of protection. And a good enemy WILL do that.

The point of a defender is to defend. And while I think the Swordmage has an interesting way to go about that, overall, he does it VERY poorly.
 
Last edited:

Except he can't. He gets his interrupt ONCE per round, on ONE instance of damage. The fire-breathing monster that just torched 5 of your party? You just prevented 10 damage...to one ally. Yay? Okay you used your special to do it again. Great, now you can't do it for another day.

The monster still dropped 30 damage on everyone and 20 on the one you protected. How is this protecting your allies?

Even if you limit the hypothetical attack to a single ally, that's 10 damage taken out of 30 once per round. If the enemy spends an action point or does something else, you're all out of protection. And a good enemy WILL do that.

Okay, now we're just plain getting into hyperbole land.

My level 12 Swordmage with Con 16 and Greater Aegis of Shielding blocks 18 damage, not 10. Also, each of those "30 damage" attacks is going "through" a mark, so they are at -2 penalty but you seem to be assuming they all hit. Further, it's likely that at least one of your allies has resistance to the damage type in question, so of course you don't Aegis that one.

BTW, what creature in low to mid paragon tier is doing 30 damage in broad bursts or blasts round after round? That's like 4d6 + 16.
 

As DM, I find swordmages to be very annoying, second only to fighters, I can normally ignore or get around wardens and paladins quite well. But in my experience this also depends largely on the player. I've played alongside a completely ignorable swordmage, and a warden who was impressive at limiting the enemy's options.

There are a lot of factors to consider. Swordmages shine in encounters with a few powerful enemies and lots of minions or few lesser grunts, but in a skirmisher/artillery heavy encounter with lots of weaker enemies with no clear powerful opponent, they are not so good, while a fighter or warden might be able to exert exceptional control in those situations. Terrain can be problematic to a paladin or fighter, while swordmages and wardens may have an easier time bypassing it. And teammates who don't stay put and keep shifting the battlefield are annoying for fighters and wardens, while paladins and swordmages can do their jobs easier.

It's obviously not all clear cut who would do best in what situation, a lot depends on the build, power choices, and such, but I think the swordmage's defender role is acceptable at worst. I probably wouldn't play one as the sole defender of a party of 5 or 6, but for a party of 4 it's quite sufficient, and as a secondary defender in a party of 6, it can add great flexibility.
 

As DM, I find swordmages to be very annoying, second only to fighters, I can normally ignore or get around wardens and paladins quite well. But in my experience this also depends largely on the player. I've played alongside a completely ignorable swordmage, and a warden who was impressive at limiting the enemy's options.

There are a lot of factors to consider. Swordmages shine in encounters with a few powerful enemies and lots of minions or few lesser grunts, but in a skirmisher/artillery heavy encounter with lots of weaker enemies with no clear powerful opponent, they are not so good, while a fighter or warden might be able to exert exceptional control in those situations. Terrain can be problematic to a paladin or fighter, while swordmages and wardens may have an easier time bypassing it. And teammates who don't stay put and keep shifting the battlefield are annoying for fighters and wardens, while paladins and swordmages can do their jobs easier.

It's obviously not all clear cut who would do best in what situation, a lot depends on the build, power choices, and such, but I think the swordmage's defender role is acceptable at worst. I probably wouldn't play one as the sole defender of a party of 5 or 6, but for a party of 4 it's quite sufficient, and as a secondary defender in a party of 6, it can add great flexibility.

[MENTION=65726]Mengu[/MENTION] is right. The power of a [shielding] Swordmage is highly dependent on player experience. Unlike a fighter, whose tactics are mostly about the most effective way to get into an enemy's face, a Swordmage must be prepared to adopt radically different tactics in order to be effective in various situations.


Against solo enemies, a Swordmage can be devastating. Swoop in, Mark, *Run Away* [double move with Amathor's step and minor action mark in the middle]. Now the monster can bounce between you and an allied melee striker, taking all kinds of OAs unless it stays put and does nothing, which it will not do. You can also create situations where not only is the Solo unable to damage your allies, but is unable to even attack you. just brutal, especially if its attacks don't have decent riders.

Against minions and skirmishers and swarms, radically different strategy. Now you want to be in the thick of combat, laying down multiple marks and Swordbursting at almost every opportunity. You want Intelligent Blademaster and Bracers of Mighty Striking to punish enemies who attempt to disengage as much as your meager hitting power allows.

Against a mixture of enemies, things get more difficult. I think Swordmages get a bad rap because most encounters are of this type. This situation is really a mixture of the situations described above. You begin with the bottom strategy and then as the encounter goes on and the number of enemies starts to thin out, you transition to the top strategy. The trick is knowing when to initiate the transition.

Swordmages are best against solos and small groups of enemies, but as described above they do have capabilities against larger clusters of enemies with their burst attacks and multi-marking powers and feats. The problem Swordmages have in these encounters, and that [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] describes, is that they are not sticky and their multi-mark punishment can be overwhelmed due to the immediate action limit.

Dealing with these limitations takes some skill and careful power selection. I think Frigid Blade is a useful at-will for dealing with these situations. If you're Shielding, you're going to have a high Con and with a high Con this power can virtually immobilize a threat. Hit an enemy with it and shift, teleport or 'risk' an OA [don't worry, you have a high AC] to get in another monster's face. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Even with these stupid Swordmage tricks, something *will* eventually get through, and since preventing damage doesn't deal with riders, you're going to want to use Transposing Lunge [the shielding version] to prevent initial attacks altogether. After you've burnt that, Dimensional Vortex can help prevent or delay protracted melee situations that damage reduction can't handle.

This is all stuff I do very regularly when playing a Swordmage, and it works. Indeed, the number 1 problem i have playing a Swordmage is taking loads and loads of damage from being constantly assaulted by the multiple monsters I have marked and slowed. Swordmages have relatively low HP for defenders and no healing based utility powers so things can get dangerous when the monsters decide the best way to get at the squishies is to plow through the squishiest defender.

All I can say about that is to have good defenses and to not be afraid of wearing Parry Gauntlets and repeatedly going into Total Defense if you start getting mauled.

Which brings me to the OP .. 32 AC for an effective Swordmage isn't a lot. Compared to the 30ish average AC for an out of the box Fighter, that's only a 10% less likelihood of being hit at level 12, and multi-marking Swordmages can draw much more than 10% more hits than a fighter if they are doing their job well. they'll also have at least 10% less HP. Recipe for disaster without high defenses.

Every turn playing a Swordmage, it is possible to make a disastrous mistake. Either in terms of getting your relatively low HP get beat down because you took a gratuitous swing at something instead of Total Defense .. or because you went into Total Defense instead of increasing your stickiness, allowing your buddies to get swarmed.

But if you think very carefully and make the correct situational decisions and don't overestimate your abilities, your Swordmage can be an incredibly effective lock-down machine.
 
Last edited:

Except he can't. He gets his interrupt ONCE per round, on ONE instance of damage. The fire-breathing monster that just torched 5 of your party? You just prevented 10 damage...to one ally. Yay?
Except that no other defender could do more in this situation. Actually they could only do less, prevent no damage at all. Yeah, they slapped the enemy afterwards, but that didn't stop any of the damage.
The monster still dropped 30 damage on everyone and 20 on the one you protected. How is this protecting your allies?
Even if you limit the hypothetical attack to a single ally, that's 10 damage taken out of 30 once per round
By the time monsters can reliably drop 30 damage on someone the swordmage should be able to absorb 20 of that
If the enemy spends an action point or does something else, you're all out of protection.
Just like every other defender, except that most of them didn't even prevent any damage from the first attack.
Swordmages have relatively low HP for defenders
Swordmages have average hp for defenders, shielding SMs are actually among the upper ranks of defender hps do to being con-based which many defenders don't have among their top 3 stats (thus likely no more than a 12/13 to begin with and a 14/15 to end with).
Which brings me to the OP .. 32 AC for an effective Swordmage isn't a lot. Compared to the 30ish average AC for an out of the box Fighter, that's only a 10% less likelihood of being hit at level 12
That depends on how high the base chance to being hit is. If AC 30 is 50% likely to being hit and AC 32 is 40% likely to being hit, than the difference is 10 percentage points but also 20%. If the chance to be hit at AC 30 is lower than 50%, then it's >20% while staying at 10 percentage points
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top