Swordmage too weak?

[Mirtek]

The Swordmage, unless I read it wrong, marks like the Paladin...meaning he only marks when powers allow him to do so.

You read it wrong. The swordmage can just mark anyone he likes if the target is withing two squares and the swordmage has any kind of action left. Unlike the fighter the swordmage doesn't even need to attack the target he wants to mark. He just moves, attacks someone and then marks someone different.

Heck, if your DM lets you get away with the hand-switching versatile trick, the damage would be equal...

Only for 1[W] powers, the versatile bonus is static, if you attack with a 3[W] power it's still +1 and doesn't become +3

 

[Doctor Proctor]

You read it wrong. The swordmage can just mark anyone he likes if the target is withing two squares and the swordmage has any kind of action left. Unlike the fighter the swordmage doesn't even need to attack the target he wants to mark. He just moves, attacks someone and then marks someone different.

And he does that how? With his Aegis power of course!

The point was that a Dragonborn Swordmage cannot mark every target of his breathweapon attack, and neither can a Dragonborn Pally. A Dragonborn Fighter can though. This is the advantage a Fighter has in terms of marking. His mark is a little weaker in terms of utility (you have to be standing next to the guy in order for it to work), but he gains an edge in versatility by being able to mark anyone he attacks in any way.

Edit: Also, something to clarify my earlier point about the advantage of the new Fighter dailies that give encounter long marks. Say you're fighting a Dragon and some he has some minions. As a Swordmage you can use Aegis on the Dragon and let it sit on him, that's true...but you can't Aegis anyone else. With the Fighter, you can hit the Dragon with Lasting Threat and for the rest of the encounter he has a -2 to hit against all of your allies. You can then go on and attack, and mark, any and all of his allies and it won't interfere with the mark on the Dragon. It also doesn't need to be maintained anymore, like normal marks or Divine Challenge, which means that the Fighter doesn't even have to think about the Dragon while concentrating on the other enemies in the encounter. This is why Lasting Threat and it's ilk are such powerful abilities. While they're not class features, they're part of running a Fighter and need to considered...just like attacking NADs or tossing Radiant damage around like it's going out of style are part of running a Swordmage or Paladin.

 

[Josep]

I'm currently running a campaign for 5 (2 defenders, a paladin and shielding swordmage), and the swordmage is a constant irritant. Just about the time the monsters gain superior positioning and are preparing to bludgeon the PCs to death, the swordmage uses a teleport power and rearranges the position again. The enemies also have to watch clumping for fear that the swordmage will wander over and sword burst them all.

On paper, I agree that the class looks weak, but it fulfills its role very well experientally. It also makes terrain design (e.g. choke points) difficult. I'd still probably pick a fighter as a sole defender, but the swordmage is a solid secondary one.

 

[Mirtek]

And he does that how? With his Aegis power of course!

How does a fighter mark? With his attack powers. No attack power used, no fighter mark.

With the Fighter, you can hit the Dragon with Lasting Threat and for the rest of the encounter he has a -2 to hit against all of your allies. You can then go on and attack, and mark, any and all of his allies and it won't interfere with the mark on the Dragon.

Yet you need a special power beyond your ordinary marking ability to do this. Shielding swordmages have such a power as well (although fighters have more of them in Martial Power (IIRC 4 that mark until end of encounter and 4 that mark until save ends spread over all 30 levels), they only have them in Martial Power. Swordmages already have one in their base book and Arcane Power isn't out yet).

 

[garyh]

How does a fighter mark? With his attack powers. No attack power used, no fighter mark.

PHB 76:

In combat, it’s dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target.

Basic attacks also mark. Important if you're using extra basic attacks, say, from a warlord, to mark more foes.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

How does a fighter mark? With his attack powers. No attack power used, no fighter mark.

Yet you need a special power beyond your ordinary marking ability to do this. Shielding swordmages have such a power as well (although fighters have more of them in Martial Power (IIRC 4 that mark until end of encounter and 4 that mark until save ends spread over all 30 levels), they only have them in Martial Power. Swordmages already have one in their base book and Arcane Power isn't out yet).

Yeah, that's fine...but I think that it's probably safe to assume that the powers in Arcane Power will probably further increase the Swordmages elemental damage potential and ability to engage multiple foes at once.

I'm not trying to say they suck or anything...quite the contrary. As I said before, they're the best of both worlds. They have the AC and marking ability of a Defender, and the area effects, elemental damage and NAD targeting ability of a Wizard.

However, because they're essentially a hybrid of those two classes, they're not quite as good as either at their specialty. A Swordmage is not as good of a Controller as a Wizard, and I don't think they're as good of a primary Defender as a Fighter.

A Fighter can tie down multiple enemies every turn through the use of powers and extra attacks granted by feats and allies, like the Warlord. A Swordmage, most of the time, is just using his Aegis to tie down one foe. Although in fact, they can't really tie people down very well. They don't have the same ability to punish moves and shifts that the Fighter does, which means while they can mitigate damage and punish those who attack allies, they have a harder time stopping movement.

So basically, if you're only going to have one Defender in the party, I would recommend Fighter. 2 or more though? Almost any combination will work, because their abilities will support each other. In the case of a Fighter and Swordmage, for example, the Fighter can tie down the bulk of the enemies and slow the enemy's movement while the Swordmage flits about and uses his Aegis and area powers to greater effect.

 

[Herschel]

PHB 76:

In combat, it’s dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target.

Basic attacks also mark. Important if you're using extra basic attacks, say, from a warlord, to mark more foes.

Although how often do you want to mark multiple when the Warlord gives you an extra attack? I've found the vast majority of times the fighter wants to keep hitting and concentrating damage on the foe he's already swung at.

 

[garyh]

Although how often do you want to mark multiple when the Warlord gives you an extra attack? I've found the vast majority of times the fighter wants to keep hitting and concentrating damage on the foe he's already swung at.

Depends on the situation. My point, really, was that the fighter could mark without using an at-will, encounter, daily, or utility power, which is what the person I was replying to was saying. I was just trying to illustrate a situation that might make that distinction important.

 

[KidSnide]

Although a fighter can mark a number of enemies at once, combat challenge still only works once per round because the fighter only gets a single immediate action.

Also, although a swordmage can only keep a single target marked at a time, other swordmage powers perform similar functions. For example, booming blade, foesnare and even just a first-rate opportunity attack (something Cha-paladins lack) are all useful for keeping enemies from wandering off and attacking your allies.

-KS

 

[Mirtek]

Basic attacks also mark. Important if you're using extra basic attacks, say, from a warlord, to mark more foes.

Basic attack is a power

Depends on the situation. My point, really, was that the fighter could mark without using an at-will,

More precisely, basic attack is an at-will power

A Fighter can tie down multiple enemies every turn through the use of powers and extra attacks granted by feats and allies, like the Warlord. A Swordmage, most of the time, is just using his Aegis to tie down one foe. Although in fact, they can't really tie people down very well. They don't have the same ability to punish moves and shifts that the Fighter does, which means while they can mitigate damage and punish those who attack allies, they have a harder time stopping movement.

A fighter also can't prevent a shift&charge from his marks, he can hurt them in the process, but the only real protection is the -2 to attack

Although a fighter can mark a number of enemies at once, combat challenge still only works once per round because the fighter only gets a single immediate action.[/quute]
Quite true, but at least the -2 keeps working even after the IA has been used up