Swordmage too weak?

[Bolongo]

I play a Dragonborn Fighter, and one of the reasons why is for Dragonbreath. As a Fighter, I can use Dragonbreath to mark anyone in a Close Blast 5 at the beginning of a fight. I will also be taking Sweeping Blow and later Come and Get It. Why? Because they're muti-target powers that allow me to mark anyone I attack.

Sure, that works. Encounter powers, every last one of them.

I'm still not sure you've understood that CC only lasts until the end of the fighter's next turn, meaning that in a long fight the multimarking will only be active for as many rounds as you have powers to activate it. Or in your own words only "when powers allow him to do so".

Overall, I'm not denying that fighters are the stickiest of the defenders, it's just that a few of your arguments are faulty or phrased in a nonsensical way, and other defenders are not as sucky as you make them out to be.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Sure, that works. Encounter powers, every last one of them.

I'm still not sure you've understood that CC only lasts until the end of the fighter's next turn, meaning that in a long fight the multimarking will only be active for as many rounds as you have powers to activate it. Or in your own words only "when powers allow him to do so".

I'm not a child, I understand how CC works. CC is the threat that says "I'll hurt you if you do x", but it's not the only effect of a mark. I can't CC everyone I hit with my Dragonbreath, but they will ALL have a -2 to hit anyone besides me.

And as for "as long as powers allow me to do so"? First off, it's trivial for a higher level Fighter to get all or most of his powers as multi-target powers, so his ability to mark multiple targets will last until he runs out of daily and encounter powers in that case. Can the Swordmage and Paladin say the same? No. They may have a limited number of powers that mark multiple opponents, but they don't have the ability to take ANY power and make it mark multiple opponents. They can't do something crazy like multiclass Wizard and multi-mark with a fireball. (Note: I'm not saying that's a good idea, just that it's not the specific power that matters)

Overall, I'm not denying that fighters are the stickiest of the defenders, it's just that a few of your arguments are faulty or phrased in a nonsensical way, and other defenders are not as sucky as you make them out to be.

Please, show me where I said that the Swordmage and Paladin suck. Here, I'll help you out...I didn't. I said that they weren't as good at being the sole Defender in the party. Since you admit that the Fighter is the "stickiest of Defenders", that would seem to back that up.

And if they're the "stickiest" of the Defenders, how do they accomplish that? They can usually do a bit more damage than a Paladin when their mark isn't respected, but an Assault Swordmage can make a basic attack when someone they used their Aegis on attacks an ally, so that's about even. Could it be that *gasp* it's the multi-marking that makes them stickier?

 

[Mirtek]

Can the Swordmage and Paladin say the same? No. They may have a limited number of powers that mark multiple opponents, but they don't have the ability to take ANY power and make it mark multiple opponents. They can't do something crazy like multiclass Wizard and multi-mark with a fireball. (Note: I'm not saying that's a good idea, just that it's not the specific power that matters)

Of course once the swordmage hit's epic he can do that (and if he's a wandering swordmage he can basically mark each and every foe for the full encounter with a minor action).

Could it be that *gasp* it's the multi-marking that makes them stickier?

Actually it's their combat superiorty that makes them stickier which ironicly actually has nothing to do with his marking.

Multi-marking only makes him hand out more -2 penalties but doesn't make him stickier for anyone but the first marked foe deciding to leave him (and this foe is also free to leave, he merely might take a hit first)

 

[SteveC]

I'm more than a bit surprised at the animosity here. There's nothing wrong with the mechanics for marking as a defender for either the Swordmage or the Fighter: they just work differently.

If you're running against large numbers of creatures, the fighter definitely locks down more creatures, while the swordmage (the shielding one at least, I don't have experiences with assault) pretty much takes one one foe out of the equation.

Both do a strong job as a defender, they just do it differently, which is the entire point of the class. If I only had one defender for a group, I would base my pick on the play style of the GM (I know that's metagaming, but there you go). My current GM likes to run small numbers of very powerful opponents against us, so the Swordmage defends quite well. If I were running against lots of medium powered foes, I'd probably prefer the fighter.

Again, there's really no need to bring a fight to this, since from my actual play experiences (I've played a fighter as well...) they both perform their role, they just do it differently.

Just my $.02...

--Steve

 

[KlassyReborn]

Let me chime in here to say that swordmage is possibly my favorite class. It's not designed to be a great defender, nor a great damage dealer, but a well rounded character that can take the role of both if need be. At least that's my feelings on it, nothing I say is set in stone, so if any of you can disprove that, be my guest.

And calling them weak is all just a relative term, weak as opposed to what? I'm failing to see how fighter marks are better than swordmage's. Fighters have to constantly attack the same target to keep the attack, whereas swordmages don't. And sure they're not as good damage deals as say, a warlock, but their attacks are great utilities in themselves. Greenflame Blade is a fantastic minion killer if you have them group up. Lightning Lure just means you don't need to move a full movement. Swordburst is just nuts against sworms.

It's all about how you build it, let's say you want a genasi swordmage for a LFR campaign. You boost his Int to 20 with a point buy method, and set his background to thay. With the feat Intellegent Blademast, you have a first level character with an AC of 20, 35hp, and a +5 to hit with a basic melee, withOUT the prof bonus of whatever weapon you choose.

On that note, i feel it's unfair to say that any one class is inferior to another, or even weak. If you know how to build one right, then they are fantastic, what I think your problem is, is that you really don't know how to make a swordmage correctly, because i feel if you did, you wouldn't be calling them weak in the least.
(That wasn't a personal attack on anyone, "you" is used in the 2nd person plural.)

 

[Nahat Anoj]

You read it wrong. The swordmage can just mark anyone he likes if the target is withing two squares and the swordmage has any kind of action left. Unlike the fighter the swordmage doesn't even need to attack the target he wants to mark. He just moves, attacks someone and then marks someone different.

Huh. I had always assumed that using a swordmage's aegis was like a paladin's divine challenge in that the swordmage could only use the aegis once per turn and could only have one monster be affected by it. But now that reread the power, it doesn't say an aegis can only be used once per turn, nor does it say that only one enemy can be affected at any time.

So swordmages can mark up to 3 creatures per turn, 4 if they decide to spend an AP (provided they're in range for all of those). They could, in theory, mark every enemy eventually. Our group's assault swordmage could then go tank someone and, once per turn, teleport to wherever he needs to be when the aegised targets hit an ally ... I'll have to mention that to him.

 

[KlassyReborn]

Huh. I had always assumed that using a swordmage's aegis was like a paladin's divine challenge in that the swordmage could only use the aegis once per turn and could only have one monster be affected by it. But now that reread the power, it doesn't say an aegis can only be used once per turn, nor does it say that only one enemy can be affected at any time.

So swordmages can mark up to 3 creatures per turn, 4 if they decide to spend an AP (provided they're in range for all of those). They could, in theory, mark every enemy eventually. Our group's assault swordmage could then go tank someone and, once per turn, teleport to wherever he needs to be when the aegised targets hit an ally ... I'll have to mention that to him.

Ok, let me read you EXACTLY what it says in the LFR PG:

"Target: One creature within burst 2

Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target. If you mark other creatures using other powers, the target is still marked. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place."

So you can only mark one target, UNLESS you take the paragon tier feat Double Aegis, which allows you to mark two targets at once, or the Epic Tier feat, Total Aegis, which says "Mark any targets within the burst of aegis of assault or aegis of shielding"

However, it is still subject to the part "Until you use this power against another target."

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Ok, let me read you EXACTLY what it says in the LFR PG:

I can't read words sometimes.

 

[KlassyReborn]

I can't read words sometimes.

It's ok, hooked on phonics didn't work on me either.