Swordmage too weak?

[Mirtek]

Yes, swordmages have the lowest DPR at the moment (and the few times they catch up in terms of DPR it's only with the less desirable multi-target-damage).

Yet the have the best mark of all defenders (well, shielding swordmages at least). Mark, get away from market enemy and cause him to either miss or do no damage (thanks to 4e's low damage / high hp math for monsters the aegis of shielding can effecticely neutralize the marked monster)


However I expect the damage of the swordmage to be increased in Arcane Power. While the low damage seemed to be OK for a defender class, the new striker classes in PHB have defender-hp, almost defender-AC and do their striker-damage.

So more damage for swordmage and paladin in Arcane/Divine Power should make up for this.

So people took Great Weapon Fighters along the same lines as 3E Power Attack builds and were disappointed that they were playing a Defender, not a Striker.

Strange I found most people complaining that the fighter is actually too striker-like with his damage output while at the same time reaping the benefits of defender-hp and defender-AC.

 

[Spatula]

I think that to some extent D&D 4th Edition missed an important mark with its initial roll-out. They didn't have a character that hits for massive amounts of damage with a single Longsword, Bastard Sword, or Great Sword. Their Martial Strikers were the Rogue (light blade) and the Ranger (dual-wielding or archery).

So people took Great Weapon Fighters along the same lines as 3E Power Attack builds and were disappointed that they were playing a Defender, not a Striker.

*shrug* The fighter can't do the damage that a ranger can (but then, which class can?), but it definitely has a lot more "striker" potential than the other defenders. Perhaps what's throwing some people is that in 3e, 2H swords were the damage weapon of choice, but in 4e they are primarily chosen for accuracy. Hammers & axes are the way to go.

 

[fba827]

I'm curious re: this particular comment. In my group the swordmage's mark (shielding) is triggered nearly every round. The only time it's not triggered is when the marked creature is attacking the swordmage (which means the swordmage is doing his job of keeping the pressure of the striker, so still a win).

I can see the assault mark coming up less though (though I haven't seen it in play).

I was being a bit broad in my comment to leave it short, but to explain ...

Yeah, usually the enemies end up attacking the swordmage or provoking the shielding/assault (same as with a fighter - so no difference there; as it happens). But the fighter gets to do that extra kick to the groin when enemies shift - that is what i was referring to (i know it's not part of the mark itself, I guess I just over simplified in the original list out of laziness).

 

[Bolongo]

Until people can get a medieval sword-master DPS monster we're going to continue to hear all the same complaints from people who ultimately loathe the idea of playing a 4E Defender almost as much as they loathe the idea of playing a 3E Healer.

Those people should be very happy with the Avenger, then.

 

[Herschel]

So I got to read the Swordmage for the first time this weekend, and noticed the classes damage output is rather low compared to a fighter. A Swordmage spells for the most part are 1(W) + effect for encounters or 2(W) + effect for Dailys.

While this is a good thread, lets break it down in the most base form:

You are looking at it wrong.

Simple damage output is a poor matrix.

Very poor.

This isn't 3e number crunching any more. Each class has perks and drawbacks.

The fighter doesn't have the area damage a swordmage does.

The fighter doesn't have the mobility a swordmage does.

The fighter rarely has the Armor Class a swordmage does.

The fighter doesn't have the defenses a swordmage does.

The fighter doesn't simply negate the damage a swordmage can (shielding version obviously).

The fighter has to target AC more than a swordmage does.

The fighter is not as optimal using a Genasi, Eladrin or Tiefling vs. a swordmage. Human is a wash.

There are tradeoffs galore in 4e.

 

[sammy]

I have DMed a few swordmages, and yes, they are not designed to be a striker, but a odd defender. One player had an Eladrin swordmage and took lots of the teleporting powers. He would always "pop" everywhere, and he was the assaulting. Mark a baddie 2 away, let the baddie attack a friend, pop in, attack, pop away, mark again. Rinse and repeat.

I am now playing a tiefling swordmage based around the hellfire blood feat ( I think thats the name, where I get +1 to attack and damage with fire-fear). With his +2 broadsword and Iron Armbands of Power, he's the striker of the group. And I love to trade places with the invigorating dwarven fighter via teleporting after I have done my damage, and watch short and stubby do his massive damage as well. What a team of utter destruction.

Sammy

 

[sammy]

My point is that I see that classess have their places, but it still comes down to how you build it. My swordmage is straight damage (the magic items help, of course), yet my friends version of a teleporting madman is more defender as it is written. I just wish I could change the Aegis from assault to shielding for my tiefling.

PS- I am about to multi class into Wizard, grabbing more fire powers when I can.



Sammy

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The way I read Swordmages is that they're probably a secondary Defender. Basically, if your party doesn't have any Defenders, then a Fighter should probably be your first choice. They're sort of the archetype for that role... They can mark anyone at any time, rather than only doing so through powers, and they can mark for an entire encounter or mark whole groups simultaneously.

A Swordmage can't compete with that...but by the same token, a Fighter can't compete with the rest of the abilities that the Swordmage brings to the table. They can reduce damage to allies with certain encounter and daily powers, but not on an At-Will basis, and they certainly can't teleport to enforce their mark!

In a party where the Swordmage is the primary Defender though, I don't think you'll really get to see them shine. They won't be able to hit and run as easily, because they'll be busy forming a wall to protect allies. With another Defender, like a Fighter or Paladin, on point though they can feel free to flit around the battlefield striking here and there and leaving their mark on people. This in turn will leads to lots of damage mitigation or teleporting to the enemies to enforce the mark. They're just not a "stand still and hold the line" class like the other Defenders. I wouldn't say they're underpowered though, as they combine the best qualities of a Defender (High AC and ability to mark) with the best qualities of a Wizard/Warlock (ability to target NADs and use ranged, burst and blast powers to hit multiple enemies).

 

[Mirtek]

and they can mark for an entire encounter

By default a fighter can only mark for a single round and needs special powers to mark longer. A swordmage can mark for the entire combat with his default mark without needing any special encounter powers.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

By default a fighter can only mark for a single round and needs special powers to mark longer. A swordmage can mark for the entire combat with his default mark without needing any special encounter powers.

Sorry, I should've been more specific. Yes, it's for an entire encounter, but it CAN'T be overridden at all. As opposed to the Swordmage where his will drop off when a Fighter accidentally marks the guy or something. Additionally, the Fighter can mark the BBEG with Lasting Threat and still feel free to mark any other enemies any time he wishes, whereas the Swordmage can only maintain one Aegis at a time IIRC.