Synthesist as a tank?

[SteelDraco]

So, I was thinking about something kooky for a recent thread ([MENTION=67606]Stumblewyk[/MENTION]'s "Help me build a tank!" thread, specifically). I looked over the synthesist summoner archetype, with a mind to turning it into a tank. Sure, your BAB isn't going to be great, but you have access to all those fun evolutions to play with, and since you use the best of you and your eidolon's scores (your mental and the eidolon's physical), you can get pretty impressive stats all around. Plus, the summoner's spell list is fairly impressive - it gets a number of personal-enhancement spells, some of them earlier than a wizard or druid. I started playing around with the idea, and had some questions about the mechanics of the class with regard to hit points.

It says you gain your eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points, in addition to your own. I'm curious how this interacts with the creature's hit points from Constitution bonuses and whether or not you recalculate the summoner's hit points based on the eidolon's Constitution score. Say, for example, that I have a 7th level summoner with a 10 Con base, plus a Belt of Constitution +2, for a total of 12 Con, giving him 7d8+7 hit points. This summoner has an eidolon with a 16 Con (13 base for biped, +1 from an ability increase, and +2 for an evolution). This would give the eidolon by itself 6d10+18 hit points.

When fused, the archetype says you use the eidolon's Constitution instead of your own, and that all items you're wearing continue to function. Presumably, since we're fused into one creature, the eidolon's Constitution increases due to the belt, since the synthesist uses its Constitution score. Therefore the synthesist and the eidolon both have an 18 Constitution. Right?

Would that mean that, when fused with his eidolon, the synthesist has 7d8+28 hit points, plus 6d10+24 temporary hit points from the eidolon? That seems... really good for a tank. Like, really really good. Am I missing something there?

Also, it seems like you can tank like a madman if you're so inclined, using evolutions and spells to your advantage. If I'm reading the rules right, each increase to your eidolon's Con modifier counts double, so Ability Increase (Constitution) is worth it. Improved Natural Armor gives +2 natural armor to AC for the low cost of one evolution point. You get your eidolon's armor bonus, so you'll be able to get a decent armor bonus, a good natural armor bonus you can further increase with Barkskin, plus whatever your eidolon's Dexterity score gives you. Summoners get a bunch of useful defensive and battlefield control spells as well (barkskin, blur, displacement, invisibility, walls, pits, black tentacles, etc). They get movement powers through evolutions as well, which tank-types normally have to beg spellcasters for.

About the only thing they don't get is bonus feats, and a lot of those can be replicated with evolutions. You can probably afford to spend your normal feats on combat stuff, though.

Thoughts? Has anybody tried a build like this? It's been added to my list of characters that I want to play, which is getting longer the more I play around with Pathfinder.

 

[Starbuck_II]

It says you gain your eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points, in addition to your own. I'm curious how this interacts with the creature's hit points from Constitution bonuses and whether or not you recalculate the summoner's hit points based on the eidolon's Constitution score. Say, for example, that I have a 7th level summoner with a 10 Con base, plus a Belt of Constitution +2, for a total of 12 Con, giving him 7d8+7 hit points. This summoner has an eidolon with a 16 Con (13 base for biped, +1 from an ability increase, and +2 for an evolution). This would give the eidolon by itself 6d10+18 hit points.

Would that mean that, when fused with his eidolon, the synthesist has 7d8+28 hit points, plus 6d10+24 temporary hit points from the eidolon? That seems... really good for a tank. Like, really really good. Am I missing something there?

Yes, but the drawback, when lose all temp you lose it.
Second: healing spell don't heal it. Only that cure Eidolon spell so you must be your own healer.
Unlike a Pally who heals self as swift action (Lay on hands), you need to draw the wand or cast the spell yourself (using up action you could be using to fight).

Improved Natural Armor gives +2 natural armor to AC for the low cost of one evolution point. You get your eidolon's armor bonus, so you'll be able to get a decent armor bonus, a good natural armor bonus you can further increase with Barkskin, plus whatever your eidolon's Dexterity score gives you.

Armor is cheaper than evolution points (a precious and rare commodity). So you are slightly behind at first.

Never ever, ever take Eidolon armor bonuses as armor bonuses: alwys choose NA. Why? Because Barkskin/amulet of NA boost it further and you have Mage Armor spell.
Potions of Mage armor (if lack spell) are cheaper than potions of Barkskin for duration for one thing.

About the only thing they don't get is bonus feats, and a lot of those can be replicated with evolutions. You can probably afford to spend your normal feats on combat stuff, though.

Yeah, you have to take PA with your own feats.
Luckily, you can qualify since you can remain in Synthesist form for 24 hrs or more if you desire.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Synthesist is scary powerful as a tank, it looks like. Just look at level 1, using the Quad form (yay, pounce!). Using Mage Armor spell and Pounce, Imp. Nat Armor, and Claws evolutions.

Dex 14 (+2)
+2 base nat armor
+2 evolution
+4 mage armor
+2 heavy shield (FAQ/eratta says you retain your own limbs)
= AC 22! (and at level 2 you get another +2 nat armor!)

You have 9 hp and 6 temp hp (you're forced to use the eidolon's Con 13). You have 2 claw attacks and a bite at full BAB that you can pounce with, and base speed 40.

Who needs fighters?!

EDIT: Here's what your ability scores look like at level 1. Using 20 point buy and Half-Elf for race.
Str 7, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18 base
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18 fused

 

[GlassEye]

... +2 heavy shield (FAQ/eratta says you retain your own limbs)...

You have 2 claw attacks and a bite at full BAB that you can pounce with, and base speed 40...

I don't believe you would be able to use a shield since your limbs will be within the limbs of the eidolon. You would have to use the shield with your eidolon limb taking away one of your claw attacks. Also note that the summoner is not proficient with shields. Still, AC 20 is good.

 

[SteelDraco]

Yes, but the drawback, when lose all temp you lose it.

Well, true, but since you can take damage yourself if it would result in your eidolon being dismissed, I'm not sure why you'd ever allow that to happen. Seems to be a better idea to just take Resilient Eidolon at 1st level and desperately call out for healing when you get knocked out, like a barbarian does - you have to get healed when you get knocked out before your eidolon disappears, or you'll almost certainly die when your Constitution goes down when the eidolon dissipates. The difference between your Con and your eidolon's can be very dangerous, just like a barbarian's increased Con from raging can kill him if he's not careful.

Hm. I guess that's a reasonable reason to allow your eidolon to get knocked out, just seems like you'd be out of the fight anyway if you put all your character build into being fused with your eidolon. I suppose the Summon Eidolon spell would allow you to hop back in for a bit, at least.

Second: healing spell don't heal it. Only that cure Eidolon spell so you must be your own healer.
Unlike a Pally who heals self as swift action (Lay on hands), you need to draw the wand or cast the spell yourself (using up action you could be using to fight).

Well, not being efficiently self-healing isn't a huge problem - most tanks aren't, after all. Paladins get that as one of their big tanking benefits.

Personally, I'd be inclined to allow the fast healing evolution to heal the temporary hit points granted by the eidolon. I'd also consider an evolution or feat that allowed the temporary hit points to be treated like regular hit points for the purposes of external healing, but that's clearly just house rules at that point.

The life conduit series of spells do allow you to get some benefit from others healing you - you can take damage to heal your eidolon as a swift action, shuffling around damage so that you can be healed by outside sources, but it's not a whole lot (1d6, 2d6, or 3d6 per round for a 1st/3rd/5th level spell that lasts 1 round/level).

Armor is cheaper than evolution points (a precious and rare commodity). So you are slightly behind at first.

Never ever, ever take Eidolon armor bonuses as armor bonuses: alwys choose NA. Why? Because Barkskin/amulet of NA boost it further and you have Mage Armor spell.

Yeah, that's clearly the way to go.

Your AC isn't going to start out great, true. Depending on base form and evolutions, you'll have a natural armor bonus from +2 to +6 (aquatic form with Improved Natural Armor evolution). You'll have a Dex from 12 to 18 (serpentine form with Ability Increase). Honestly, that's right in line with where you'd be normally with light armor and a normal caster-type Dexterity score. The ability to use mage armor on top of that is just gravy.

I'm frankly astonished that Pounce doesn't have a minimum summoner level requirement - that just seems silly. So much charop stuff keys off of pounce that it doesn't make much sense to me that it'd be available at 1st level when other classes have to wait until 7th level or so. That's when a druid's big cat animal companion and the beast shape II spell can both get pounce.

 

[SteelDraco]

Oh, further fun thought - you can start taking the Dimensional Agility->Dimensional Dervish feat chain at 6th level, thanks to Maker's Jump. You can take them all with your 7th, 9th, and 11th level feats, since you have the BAB of +6 by then. You can easily pounce using Dimensional Assault at 9th level.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But you can have pounce at level 1 for 1 measly evo point anyway...

 

[SteelDraco]

I know. I don't see the logic there, either.

 

[Dingo333]

Pros
You can still use armor and it will enhance the final "Tank" armor too, hello chain shirt.

In a point buy, you can send all your points to Con and Cha, with a few in Int and Wis. Str and Dex are what the Eidolon are for, Con is only needed to help keep him around.

Many enhancements, flight, swim, expanded magic via magic evolutions.

Cons

Action Economy. It drops a lot, you can not cast and attack like a normal summoner.

Attacks. A normal summoner can make his eidolon large, maybe even huge. A huge eidolon's bite is 2d6 (4d6 with INA feat and ID evolution). You would need to use 1 of your feats and get your DM to allow you to take a monster feat just to get it to 2d6.

In all, not a bad tank idea, but a sepperate eidolon is sometimes better. (20 ft reach at huge)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A Synth still doesn't benefit from physical armor while bonded with his eidolon, though you can wear it for when the eidolon's not around and have it become nonfunctional when you summon your bio-suit.