System Matters (The Grand Experiment)

[jdrakeh]

I have absolutely no idea how far I will get with The Grand Experiement, but I figured that I'd post about it here just in case anybody else is interested in trying it out on their own tables. So, what is The Grand Experiment?

System matters. It always has. Every sustem imparts its own unique cosmology upon a given setting or adventure. For instance, the low-level group of PCs in D&D that face off against a horde of zombies are likely to walk away victorious, while a low-level group of Companions in Ars Magica that face off against a horde of zombies is likely to go home in tarred pine boxes.

Every system has its own unique artifacts (i.e., system-specific quirks) that foster a certain tone, pace, and type of action in a given game. For example, D&D characters improve exponentially over relatively short periods of time simply by doing things, while RuneQuest characters may or may not learn simply by doing, and must make a roll to determine what - if anything - they learn from an experience.

Similarly, in D&D your typical man of the cloth is a spell-casting, sword-wielding, warrior of god, while your typical priest in Fighting Fantasy is a simple man who preaches the glory of his god, but who possess no magical or martial abilities of note, instead being characterized only by his faith and verbal experession of that faith.

System matters. It always will. I hypothesize that if one were to take a single adventure module that makes no inherent system assumptions (I'll be using Thieves in the Forest) and runs it under different systems, the resulting adventures will be vastly different both in tone and scope, as well as actual outcome. This hypothesis forms the core of The Grand Experiment. I am going to take that one fairly generic adventure module, and run it under six different systems as follow:

• Basic Roleplaying (Magic World)
  
  
• Castles & Crusades (First Printing)
  
  
• Dungeons & Dragons (1976 Holmes Basic)
  
  
• Advanced Fighting Fantasy
  
  
• Ars Magica (5th Edition)
  
  
• The Fantasy Trip

Both the same group of players and same module shall be used throughout in addition to adhering to a standardized play schedule. The only thing that will change is the system. I plan on documenting each run through the adventure, detailing specific instances of interest where the actual play diverges from previous runs through the adventure. This is The Grand Experiment. So what does it prove?

Well, I'd like to say that it proves system matters. Or maybe that regardless of whether or not you travel the same road as somebody else, the mode of transportation that you utilize may effect your final destination. Honestly, though - it doesn't prove a thing.

The Grand Experiment is about experiencing - not about proving. It's about the journey, not the destination. So, with that, I'm off to do a little bit of prep for my coming journey into the many different facets of tabletop gaming. When I get back, I'll tell you about the trip

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm not going to critique your system choices too much, but isn't using The Fantasy Trip almost like using a stripped-down version of Basic D&D? (I'm very familiar with both, btw.) They are, after all both old, fairly simple RPGs, after all.

I think that using something a bit more modern and different would be more revealing...like using one of the "generic" systems like GURPS or (my fave) HERO.

After all, they too should have revealing quirks for your experiment, and might get you some interesting insights about just how generic such a system is.

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm not going to critique your system choices too much, but isn't using The Fantasy Trip almost like using a stripped-down version of Basic D&D?

Not at all. The Fantasy Trip's combat system is much more involved than D&D's - it has rules for facing, bleeding, infection and so on. Additonally, it doesn't have automatic advancement and utilizes skill-based spell casting after a fashion. It's a much more tactical game than Basic D&D is, and quite a bit more lethal (as well as balanced) where short-term campaigns are concerned.

using one of the "generic" systems like GURPS or (my fave) HERO.

It's ironic that you should mention this, as The Fantasy Trip is the foundation for GURPS. That said, for the first run through The Grand Experiment I want to stick only to fantasy games (i.e., games specifically designed for fantasy). If I do second run, it'll be with a different module and with a different type of system (e.g., generic, sci-fi, etc). I'll be certain to use both GURPS and Hero when (and if) I get around to that second run

 

[amethal]

Did I read correctly that the same players will be going through the adventure 6 times?

How do you think that will affect the results of your experiment?

Also, will they be designing "similar" PCs each time (within the limits of the different systems, obviously).

 

[the Jester]

One problem with your experiment is that the pcs will know more about what's going on in the adventure each time they start a new system. It may change the dynamic.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: D&D vs TFT- what I meant is that they are both older fantasy games...I would think that switching one or the other out for a more modern game might give you insight into system evolution.

However, re-examining your list:

* Basic Roleplaying (Magic World)

* Castles & Crusades (First Printing)

* Dungeons & Dragons (1976 Holmes Basic)

* Advanced Fighting Fantasy

* Ars Magica (5th Edition)

* The Fantasy Trip

I see that you do have some newer games on the list. I also don't recognize Magic World...who/when is that from? And isn't C&D an outgrowth of 3Ed?

I'm just concerned that you're not getting a good spread of fantasy games. Talisantha is a good one, for instance, that bears little similarity to those others. And while RIFTS might seem clunky, Palladium Fantasy isn't.

As for doing both GURPS & HERO...I wouldn't do it. Both games require too much time to design PCs that your players might rebel.

I also share amethal's concerns. It will be difficult to get good results without experiencing changes due to metagaming- perhaps you should find a couple of different modules (like some of the old TFT or Judges Guild ones. Or perhaps you could design a multiple choice module or 2 to ensure that the differences you record are due to system and systems alone, not to players gaming with knowledge their PCs don't have. Maybe you could even run it tournament style somehow- with different GMS in your area running the games with their groups while you're taking notes.

And having each person in the group run an adventure should spice things up a bit...one person runs TFT, another runs the D&D game, yet another runs Ars Magica, etc.

 

[jdrakeh]

Re: D&D vs TFT- what I meant is that they are both older fantasy games...I would think that switching one or the other out for a more modern game might give you insight into system evolution.

Ah, I'm not really after charting system evolution - I already have a pretty good handle on that. What I tried to do was pick six different games that are substantially diffferent from one another in how they handle fantasy and what elements they place their emphasis on mechanically.

Of all the games on the list, only Magic World comes close to being generic and if I revise my list, it'll be the first to get switched out (probably for my own Warlock fantasy variant of The Window, as it makes a lot of specific assumptions about the nature of magic and revolves around snti-heroes after a fashion).

I also don't recognize Magic World...who/when is that from?

Magic World was the second high fantasy RPG to be released for use with BRP. It was part of Chaosium's Worlds of Wonder boxed set.

And isn't C&D an outgrowth of 3Ed?

C&C is more an evolution of AD&D 1e/2e than a spin-off of 3e.

As for doing both GURPS & HERO...I wouldn't do it. Both games require too much time to design PCs that your players might rebel.

I can build a GURPS character in about 30 minutes, and a Hero character in about 45. Ditto my players, so that won't be a problem when/if I get around to running a generic battery.

I also share amethal's concerns. It will be difficult to get good results without experiencing changes due to metagaming- perhaps you should find a couple of different modules (like some of the old TFT or Judges Guild ones.

Point taken. I have plenty of old-school generic modules laying around, as well as a few newer ones. I'll consider switching it up if I run into a wall, but my players are pretty good about not using meta-game knowledge and are aware of what The Grand Experiment entails.

and having each person in the group run an adventure should spice things up a bit...one person runs TFT, another runs the D&D game, yet another runs Ars Magica, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm the only person locally who has enough familiarity with most of those games (save D&D and Ars) to run them.

 

[jdrakeh]

One problem with your experiment is that the pcs will know more about what's going on in the adventure each time they start a new system. It may change the dynamic.

That may be a problem, but my players are pretty good about seperating IC and OOC knowledge - and I specifically chose a short, simple, adventure to ease the frustration factor of The Experiment that might arise due to playing through the same module six times.

 

[jdrakeh]

Did I read correctly that the same players will be going through the adventure 6 times?

Yep. That's the plan.

How do you think that will affect the results of your experiment?

I do agree that it has the possibility to taint the results, but as I've noted above, I don't think that it will be a real problem. And even if it proves to be a problem - this experiment is about experiencing different systems, not proving a hypothesis, so I'm not too concerned about it.

Also, will they be designing "similar" PCs each time (within the limits of the different systems, obviously).

Yeah. Similar PCs will be enforced. I'm trying to narrow the only variable down to system, but all of the systems that I've chosen will produce wildly different characters mechancially, even if they may be the same conceptually (again, Magic World may be the sole exception).

 

[Umbra]

Interesting idea.

Yep. That's the plan.

If you are going to do this, may I suggest you actually talk through the module with the players before you start playing so that the first system you use is not advantaged/disadvantaged (eg - will the players have more fun the first time through as they don't know anything about the storyline or the characters). The more control over the variables you have increases the validity of the results.

It would also be cool if you got the players to provide a brief response after each run through.