Systems You'd Never Play after Reading Them

[pming]

Hiya!

As a megafan and frequent* HERO player, I eventually made a spreadsheet for making characters. Much like PC creation itself, it was time consuming to set up, but once created, was a breeze. Definitely a time saver when calculating build point costs. I designed mine to show the costs, which is helpful but not necessary.

Alas, the program I used stopped being supported by Microsoft a decade + ago, and no longer runs on any Mac post-OS9.

One of these days, I’ll replicate my efforts...


* well, at one point in my life

They have a full-blown java app called "HERO Designer" that lets you do that as well as add various books, options, 'packages', etc and print it/save it as a PDF. It's really a life saver as far as time to create. But that's not the biggest 'problem' with making a HERO character for me. The biggest hurdle is just the sheer *amount* of potential choices and modifiers. I just wish there was a book for "Basic HERO" so to say. Where all the CP costs were done "for you and in the background" and you just chose a race, profession/class, and upbringing/background with all the 'stuff' being done. Then, as you played the game you could start customizing your PC as they explore and survive the campaign. I don't know. I think it's just a HUGE hurdle for new players to get over. Love the system...I think...at least on paper.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hiya!



They have a full-blown java app called "HERO Designer" that lets you do that as well as add various books, options, 'packages', etc and print it/save it as a PDF. It's really a life saver as far as time to create. But that's not the biggest 'problem' with making a HERO character for me. The biggest hurdle is just the sheer *amount* of potential choices and modifiers.

I don’t know if it’s the same one, but the first HERO character design program didn’t work on Apple products. Is it safe to assume that this is different?

I just wish there was a book for "Basic HERO" so to say. Where all the CP costs were done "for you and in the background" and you just chose a race, profession/class, and upbringing/background with all the 'stuff' being done.

Well...there sort of is. In almost every sourcebook, like FantasyHERO, StarHERO, and the like, the main races are stayted out with what is called a “package deal”. That will show the average stat mods and additional abilities for an adult of that species that varies from the human norm (the all 10s on the basic sheet). So an elf might have minuses to Str and Con, physical defense, but bonuses to Int, perception rolls with eyesight and hearing, silent movement, ranged combat, and maybe even some minor innate magic. They might also have vulnerabilities. More “fey” elves might take damage from weapons made of certain materials.

In addition, you can also find NPCs for “scientist”, “thug”, “cop” and so forth, which are supposed to be modern norms, and the villain/organization/ sourcebooks & adventures will stat out all kinds of agents, minions and foes that you can easily use as-is, reskin, or tweak.

(Of course, checking the math is always a good idea, because typos DO occur.)

Since the game is classless, you won’t find classes per se, but you can easily make package deals for those as well*. That’s what I did when I designed a D&D HERO campaign. A “space marine” might get skill points in zero-g combat, piloting, and some armed & unarmed martial arts. A “wizard” might know a variety of languages, alchemy, and have a certain bonus to his proficiency manipulating magical forces.

And the same goes for gear. A lot of HERO sourcebooks give you lists of already statted-out gear...and will do so with transparency. So you won’t only know that a 2 handed sword does 2d6 HKA and costs 7 points to buy, you’ll know exactly WHY (obvious accessible focus, etc.) so tweaking or DIY-from-scratch is easier.


* Actually, there may be some professional package deals in the sourcebooks. I haven’t looked in a while.

 

[John Dallman]

I don’t know if it’s the same one, but the first HERO character design program didn’t work on Apple products. Is it safe to assume that this is different?

The first one, in Champions 4e days, was an MS-DOS program and thus definitely incompatible with Macs. One written in Java should work on macOS, but the Java support software isn't available on iOS (by Apple's choice, AFAIK).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The first one, in Champions 4e days, was an MS-DOS program and thus definitely incompatible with Macs. One written in Java should work on macOS, but the Java support software isn't available on iOS (by Apple's choice, AFAIK).

AAAAAARGH!!!!!

I mostly use my desktop machine for business only.. 99% of my fun stuff is on mobile devices.

Thanks for the info, though.

 

[John Dallman]

99% of my fun stuff is on mobile devices.

Doing a bit more research, there are ways to get Java programs running on iOS, but this doesn't look like something an end-user can sensibly do. The developer of the Java program has to build an iOS app out of the Java program, via something like Oracle ADF Mobile, or Gluon. The resulting app then has to be distributed via Apple's app store.

https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/adf-mobile/overview/index.html

Apple have shown themselves unwilling to distribute anything via the app store which would allow users to acquire and run software from anywhere else. A Java run-time package would definitely allow that.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

C’est la vie.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Oh yeah, packages and whatnot...yeah. I know about all that. I guess I didn't explain it right. Hmmm...

Remember when Basic D&D was 're-done' by Mentzer? When it became "BECMI" and not "B/X"? In the Basic Set 1, there was a Players Book and a Dungeon Masters Book. The Players book started off as just that...a book. No rules or what have you other than some very rudimentary concepts. You, the reader, just "started reading" where it says "Start Here". And you read a story. After the basics are laid down dealing with RPG concepts, your Fighter encounters a Snake with 3hp. It tells you what that means, how damage is handled, how hitting it in the first place is decided, etc. Anyway, about 20 pages or so, the reader now knows what "Strength 17" means, what "8 HP's" is, what "Damage 1d6" indicates, what a Fighter is, etc. The player then reads up at his/her leisure about Clerics, Magic-Uers, Elves, etc. The point of that type of intro is to easy someone who has no idea about what they are getting into and make them want to explore more of the game.

HERO is not a game for "beginners". I don't expect it to have the same approach as Basic D&D, that's for sure! What I'd like to see is something that "pushes all the Character Points and Costs" math stuff much farther down in the book. So the front part of the book could basically do what Mentzer did; "Here is your PC. Lets say you area a Fighter. You need to be able to fight well and strike your opponents more effectively than other, less combat-oriented characters. Everyone has an OCV and DCV, for "Offensive Combat Value" and "Defensive Combat Value". When you try to strike your opponent, you subtract their DCV from your OCV and that gives you a modifier for whatever skill you are using...lets say a sword. ... ... ...". Then it could go into brief explanations of what skills to use where, how Killing versus Stun damage works, etc.

After that brief intro it could have, basically, the same type of "four core" archtypes of fantasy RPG's: Warrior, Wizard, Priest, Rogue. No points mentioned at all other than in basic passing at the very beginning. (e.g., "To 'build' your own character the game uses a Character Points concept where various abilities cost points, and drawbacks give points. But don't worry about that now. That's for later when you feel ready to start tweaking or creating your own fantasy spells, races, classes, towers, dungeons, etc!" ). After ALL that is said and done, the player "gets it" and has some idea of how the system works and what 'flow' they can expect.

TL;DR = "It'd be nice to be shown pre-built everything without even mentioning points until the Players and DM want to start creating/modifying their own stuff".

Wow. Totally derailed this thread, didn't I? ...sorry... HERO is just one of those systems I've always WANTED to love and get into...but I just find it so frustratingly, well, "spread-sheet oriented". Like the game puts a focus on the POINTS and not on what those points represent for playing a RPG. I hear HERO gamers talking about their games, and most of the time it's all about how many points they spent on X, Y or Z, what drawbacks they took, what boosts/advantages/perks/whatevertheyrecalled, etc...and not about what their actual character is like in the game. Like getting a computer to tell you what it sees when looking at the Mona Lisa; it's going to tell you all the technical stuff that makes up the painting, but it's not going to tell you "It makes me sad".

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

TL;DR = "It'd be nice to be shown pre-built everything without even mentioning points until the Players and DM want to start creating/modifying their own stuff".

To be fair, they do include prebuilt stuff in almost every book- NPCs and their gear. It’s just not at the beginning, nor is it flagged “start here”.

Also, since the game was born out of the superhero genre, the NPCs in the core rulebooks are all modern mundanes, agents, superheroes and supervillains. But for some magical-style NPCs, you wouldn’t see the Fantasy characters until the release of FantasyHERO.

As for it being a beginner RPG, I can’t really speak to that. My first RPG was AD&D, followed by Traveller and In the Labyrinth/The Fantasy Trip. Number 4 was Champions, which eventually became HERO. Between Traveller and Champions, there were all kinds of board games from Task Force, Metagames, Avalon Hill and others. Champions just didn’t seem any more complex to me than what I started with.

 

[Frankie1969]

"Space: 1889"
While the basic concept of a game set in the world of HG Wells, Jules Verne, and Edgar Rice Burroughs is sound, . . . Where it I to play it, I'd end up using a different system AND a reimagined setting, meaning that the books were offering me basically nothing.

Twilight 2000.
When I got it way back in 198whatever I simply didn't have the RL xp & knowledge to run/play near future modern military in Europe well. And the mechanics weren't any fun either.
I've re-read it a few times in the decades since & I could run it nowdays. But the mechanics are still un-fun, so why bother?

There are a lot of RPGs out there with settings that sound super cool. I wonder, do the developers really believe in the rules they write (and play full campaigns using them) or are they tacking on rules because a combined book with a new setting + a new system sells better than a sourcebook that's either setting-only or setting using an existing system?

Personally I'd prefer setting books that focus on world content and how to set the right atmosphere at the table, offering sidebars with example stats to implement the world in a few suggested rule systems.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Hiya!


TL;DR = "It'd be nice to be shown pre-built everything without even mentioning points until the Players and DM want to start creating/modifying their own stuff".

LOL. Yeah this is a constant debating point on the HERO forums. So many old grognards saying "the way it has always been is good enough!" Including, alas, the publishers.

I'm thoroughly in the "make it simple up front, stop spending a coupla hundred pages going into the nitty-gritty of character design" camp.

So in an an effort to put money where my mouth is I put together a simplified house rules version for a fantasy game. I've popped a PDF onto the HERO site in their downloads section. It's a free download (it isn't good enough to charge for!)

If you're curious, here's a link: https://www.herogames.com/files/file/479-fantasy-hero-basic/

Some caveats:
It's my house rules. By necessity I've had to interpret stuff to make it simpler. And frankly, HERO system is bit too much system in some places, it needs some pruning. So I did some pruning. What I have pruned may not be what yo would prune.

For character design I've tried to split the difference between the typical HERO style free for all and a class based system. What I have gone with is simple templates like "Tough" and "Smart" that give a few bonuses in the appropriate stats, that can be mixed and matched with some typical profession and race templates (an idea I lifted from ... I want to say D20 Modern.) The idea being flexibility but also a solid starting point for new players.

It's meant to be playable "as-is." It includes a simple, generic magic system and equipment charts. Also a couple of chapters on running combat complete with a simple but detailed fight, action by action. It doesn't include, but could do with, some sample characters and a starting adventure.