"TAKE THAT YOU FIEND!!!" or Simplification of Attack Spells

[Mallus]

We need more HEROisation. There are far far too many different spell effects even in the PHB. I also don't like how these are then used for monsters powers and magic items. We need a small number of base effects that are combined with metamagic type modifiers to make spells, powers and items. Spell descriptions would be shorter and refer to those effects, like:

Magic Missile: ZAP 1, single target, force, medium range
Fireball: ZAP 3, area 2, heat, long range
Web: ENTANGLE 2, area 2, medium range

Amen.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

We need more HEROisation. There are far far too many different spell effects even in the PHB. I also don't like how these are then used for monsters powers and magic items. We need a small number of base effects that are combined with metamagic type modifiers to make spells, powers and items. Spell descriptions would be shorter and refer to those effects, like:

Magic Missile: ZAP 1, single target, force, medium range
Fireball: ZAP 3, area 2, heat, long range
Web: ENTANGLE 2, area 2, medium range

Not sure I agree. Does it take more in-game time for someone to look up a predefined spell in the book (or, preferably, on their sheet), or to fine-tune the parameters of a generic spell to minmax the effect?

IME, the latter is worse (from a time perspective). I'd much rather have them spend down-time optimizing their lists.

 

[Baron Opal]

We need more HEROisation. There are far far too many different spell effects even in the PHB.

"No, no, a thousand times no."

I would really hate that. I like the relative simplicity of what we have. (Yes, I note the irony in that statement.) I can get behind a streamlining of the core spells, however.

 

[Mallus]

I like the relative simplicity of what we have. (Yes, I note the irony in that statement.)

When you HEROize D&D spellcasting into something like M&M, it's plenty simple.

The whole 'you have a handful of powers, but you can use them in radically different ways or even gain new powers a few times a day' works really well.

 

[Remathilis]

The problem with 3.5 attack/damage spells is that they have too many moving parts.

You have range (touch, close, med, long).
You have duration (instantaneous or damage over time)
You have Area (target, burst, cone, cylinder, line)
You have Save (fort, ref, will)
You have To hit (if needed)
You have Components (V, S, M, Pricy M, F, DF, XP)
You have XdX damage (15d6, 5d8, 5d4+5, etc)
You have type (fire, cold, sonic, acid, electricity, force, other)
You have Spell Resistance (yes, no, partial)
And you have secondary effects.

Lets look at damage-dealing spells from 3rd level (PH + SC)

Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius.
Lightning Bolt: Electricity deals 1d6/level damage.
Vampiric Touch: Touch deals 1d6/two levels damage; caster gains damage as hp.
Acid Breath: Cone of acid deals 1d6 damage/level (max 10d6).
Icelance: Changes ice into lance, which attacks subject for 6d6 damage and stuns for 1d4 rounds.
Chain Missile: Multiple missiles deal 1d4+1 damage each, then strike secondary targets.
Hailstones: Frigid globes deal 5d6 cold damage.
Light of Venya: You radiate pearly light, which you can expend as 2 bolts that deal 2d6 damage, 4d6 against undead and evil outsiders.
Rainbow Blast: Line deals 1d6 damage of each energy type.
Resonating Bolt: Sonic energy deals 1d4 damage/level (max 10d4).
Scintillating Sphere: 20-ft.-radius burst deals 1d6 electricity/level.
Shatterfloor: Deals 1d4 sonic/level plus damages floor surface.
Sound Lance: Sonic energy deals 1d8/level damage.

Each is pretty much a different version of XdX [type] damage in a [area] with [special effect]. However, each is balanced differently so as to allow different abilities (chain missiles does less damage, but it ignores damn-near anything. Rainbow blast does 1/2 the damage, but its all typed)

Making a free-form formula that balanced all these moving parts would slow the game down even further than it is noew.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Not sure I agree. Does it take more in-game time for someone to look up a predefined spell in the book (or, preferably, on their sheet), or to fine-tune the parameters of a generic spell to minmax the effect?

The PHB would still have predefined spells but those descriptions would be a lot shorter. You have to know what ZAP and ENTANGLE mean but once you do, it's easy to understand new spell descriptions. Much the same as you proposed in post #3.

 

[Sejs]

Pass.

If I want a raw toolset game I'll play Gurps or Champions.

 

[RangerWickett]

When I revised Elements of Magic, I made it so that you could design whatever type of spell you want from those 'elements' you know (like attack and fire for fireball). However, you have two types of spells - signature spells, which are fully-developed and can be cast as a standard action; and spontaneous spells, which you make up on the spot, but take two full rounds to cast.

It really cuts down on slowdown in game, since players are encouraged to do their number-crunching outside of combat.

 

[SiderisAnon]

Elements of Magic

I have to agree that Elements of Magic really streamlines combat spells. We are using a modified version of the system in my current campaign and the two people playing spellcasters absolutely love the system.

As a DM, I love it. I don't have to worry about remembering all the oddities of 500 different spells across a series of books. If you're attacking, it only matters how many dice of damage you're doing and what element your doing the damage in. Dice are determined by how many magic points you put in and the element determines if there are any side effects (and you can choose to put more MP in to gain more powerful side effects).

Spell design takes some time, especially if you're not good with fiddling with numbers. I will admit that prior experience with HERO system will help you because there's a similar style of point analysis.

The cool thing is that you don't loose the corner-case or funky spells. Assuming you have the required magical knowledge, you can recreate almost anything out of the PHB, and you can do it on the fly if you need to. (Though you cast spells slower.)

They are also doing a lot more quirky types of things in my game. For instance, in a recent low level adventure they had to get into a moat and bailey designed fortress. It was in a now peaceful area, so there was one guard at the front gate and another inside the front door. One of the casters used Create Nature to fabricate a set of ladders. Then the characters placed one ladder down the outside of the moat, another up the inside of the moat and over the wall, a third down the wall, and then carried a fourth over so they could climb to the second story of main building. They completely bypassed my guards and managed to sneak well enough that they weren't noticed until they were on their way out. It was great ... and quite impressive considering how often my players mange to get themselves into more complications that the adventure ever called for.

This reminds me, I really need to write and post a review for Elements of Magic.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Arcana Evovled has something along those lines. Attack from Within, Sorcerous Blast, Energy Bolt. Single Target, AE, Line. You pick the damage type at the time of casting. That coupled with the templats allow a variety of effects with fewer spells.

And I also agree that magic needs to be a bit more utility based. Most weapons began as tools. Magic in D&D feels like it originated primarily for the sole purpose of killing things and taking their stuff.