"TAKE THAT YOU FIEND!!!" or Simplification of Attack Spells

[amethal]

Arcana Evovled has something along those lines.

There's a part of me that wishes it really was called that

Iron Heroes has a sorcerer type "villain class" which has a "spell list" with about three spells on it, all of which are castable an unlimited number of times per day and scale with level. It looks like DM heaven, and I've been sneaking versions of it into my D&D games for months without my players noticing.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

We need more HEROisation. There are far far too many different spell effects even in the PHB. I also don't like how these are then used for monsters powers and magic items. We need a small number of base effects that are combined with metamagic type modifiers to make spells, powers and items. Spell descriptions would be shorter and refer to those effects, like:

Magic Missile: ZAP 1, single target, force, medium range
Fireball: ZAP 3, area 2, heat, long range
Web: ENTANGLE 2, area 2, medium range

I really like this idea. Based upon the descriptors you could easily decide upon saving throws.

Area - Reflex Save
Mind Affecting - Will Save
Physiology Affecting - Fortitude Save
Single Target - No Save (some previously listed effect always trumps this... example: Magic Missile only does damage and despite the ability to affect multiple targets is not an Area spell so it gets no save. Poison, even though it affects only one target affects the target's physiology and thus grants a Fortitude Save.)

You may say... Hey Calico, Sleep affects an area AND it is mind affecting. Personally I think that you should be able to use either save to resist it depending on the situation. If your PC is within 5' of an unaffected "square" then you should be able to use Reflex to save. If you are further into the area of effect then you have to use Will since it is impossible to duck out of the area of effect. If a PC fails his Reflex save then he'd have to make the Will save. Yes, he'd have two saves but it stands to reason that the characters closest to the edge of an effect will have the greatest chance to avoid it.

PS: Oh yeah, for those of you who would then say that a target in the middle of a Fireball wouldn't get a save I've got a solution for you. Any spell that has a diminished effect will allow a save even if you are in the middle of it as you can "Roll" with the attack. Sleep has no diminished effect.

 

[Hussar]

I wouldn't mind seeing spells go in the same direction as the Summon Monster effects. It would be pretty simple to do. Level X spell does XdX to one target. Dropping the level allows you to affect a small area. Dropping two down lets you change element type. Or something like that.

Same thing could be done for buff spells as well.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Bump!

 

[Vrecknidj]

I've always liked the idea of a controlled campaign, where there are only so many spells known to all the casters in the world. Some folks have X, some folks have Y. If the guy who knows how to cast X wants to learn how to cast Y, there may just be a conflict of interest.

As a matter of fact, I'm not too thrilled with the idea that a wizard simply automatically learns two new spells at each level. I find this a little suspect as well. I mean, it works in a place like Faerun where magic drips from the sky like rain. But, it doesn't have to be that way.

And, in a world where magic is a little less prevalent, I think the problem takes care of itself.

Dave

 

[GreatLemur]

The problem with 3.5 attack/damage spells is that they have too many moving parts.

You have range (touch, close, med, long).
You have duration (instantaneous or damage over time)
You have Area (target, burst, cone, cylinder, line)
You have Save (fort, ref, will)
You have To hit (if needed)
You have Components (V, S, M, Pricy M, F, DF, XP)
You have XdX damage (15d6, 5d8, 5d4+5, etc)
You have type (fire, cold, sonic, acid, electricity, force, other)
You have Spell Resistance (yes, no, partial)
And you have secondary effects.

Lets look at damage-dealing spells from 3rd level (PH + SC)

Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius.
Lightning Bolt: Electricity deals 1d6/level damage.
Vampiric Touch: Touch deals 1d6/two levels damage; caster gains damage as hp.
Acid Breath: Cone of acid deals 1d6 damage/level (max 10d6).
Icelance: Changes ice into lance, which attacks subject for 6d6 damage and stuns for 1d4 rounds.
Chain Missile: Multiple missiles deal 1d4+1 damage each, then strike secondary targets.
Hailstones: Frigid globes deal 5d6 cold damage.
Light of Venya: You radiate pearly light, which you can expend as 2 bolts that deal 2d6 damage, 4d6 against undead and evil outsiders.
Rainbow Blast: Line deals 1d6 damage of each energy type.
Resonating Bolt: Sonic energy deals 1d4 damage/level (max 10d4).
Scintillating Sphere: 20-ft.-radius burst deals 1d6 electricity/level.
Shatterfloor: Deals 1d4 sonic/level plus damages floor surface.
Sound Lance: Sonic energy deals 1d8/level damage.

Each is pretty much a different version of XdX [type] damage in a [area] with [special effect]. However, each is balanced differently so as to allow different abilities (chain missiles does less damage, but it ignores damn-near anything. Rainbow blast does 1/2 the damage, but its all typed)

Making a free-form formula that balanced all these moving parts would slow the game down even further than it is noew.

Very nice breakdown of the various mechanical components of attack spells. I've got to disagree with your main point, however: Rodrigo Istalindir's suggested "+/- damage dice" method (somewhat similar to the sort of thing that can be done with sneak attack dice and certain feats, actually) sounds like it could handle all those components, and remain reasonably well balanced. I know I'd prefer it to having to deal with dozens of unique attack spells spread out across several rule books.

When I revised Elements of Magic, I made it so that you could design whatever type of spell you want from those 'elements' you know (like attack and fire for fireball). However, you have two types of spells - signature spells, which are fully-developed and can be cast as a standard action; and spontaneous spells, which you make up on the spot, but take two full rounds to cast.

It really cuts down on slowdown in game, since players are encouraged to do their number-crunching outside of combat.

I've always really loved the sound of Elements of Magic, and I think I'd be all over it, if it weren't for the whole elemental angle. Never really dug that as an organizing principle for magic systems or campaign worlds.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I've always really loved the sound of Elements of Magic, and I think I'd be all over it, if it weren't for the whole elemental angle. Never really dug that as an organizing principle for magic systems or campaign worlds.

The Mythic Earth edition isn't actually "elemental," though.

Incidentally, it's my preferred system. Easy to use, and being able to replace every single damage-dealing spell with a simple formula (and it is *very* simple) has a lot of appeal.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

This is one of the many reasons I like Arcana Evolved. I like the idea of the simple class of spells that every spellcaster knows, the complex list that dedicated casters know, then the exotic list that you have to take a feat to learn a spell from it. It prevents every spellcaster from being the same.

I've always liked the idea of a controlled campaign, where there are only so many spells known to all the casters in the world. Some folks have X, some folks have Y. If the guy who knows how to cast X wants to learn how to cast Y, there may just be a conflict of interest.

As a matter of fact, I'm not too thrilled with the idea that a wizard simply automatically learns two new spells at each level. I find this a little suspect as well. I mean, it works in a place like Faerun where magic drips from the sky like rain. But, it doesn't have to be that way.

And, in a world where magic is a little less prevalent, I think the problem takes care of itself.

Dave

 

[FireLance]

I think the current system makes spells too specialized, but a single generic attack spell makes would be too simple. What I'd like to do is to define "rules" for each school and subschool, so that spells of a particular type would use a common mechanic (e.g. Fire spells affect an area and allow Reflex saves, Electricity spells affect a target and require a ranged touch attack, etc.) I think this would simplify the game by cutting down on the number of spells, but would allow enough variation in the spells to make a Fire mage seem distinct from a Lightning mage. See here for some more thoughts on this.

 

[Arkhandus]

Yeah, sure, and to go along with the spell simplification, we can eliminate all different types of weapons, armor, and shields into just 2 weapons (melee and ranged), 2 armors (light and heavy), and 1 shield. And eliminate skills, they're too complicated, just use ability checks. We don't need feats either, really. Classes are of course completely unnecessary too. And only 1 kind of AC. Really, all you need is AC, attack bonus, damage, HP, and the six ability scores. Yeah, let's do away with everything. That'll make it better.

/sarcasm off

Sorry, but if you wanna play something like Mutans & Masterminds, or HERO, or whatever, then play that. Don't try forcing D&D's square peg into that round hole. Most of us wouldn't like it that way anyhow. It'd also just get really boring after a while once you remove all capacity for customization and different characters. Just using different 'flavor' for each character won't be fun after a while when its the 75th PC you've played with the exact same set of super-simple super-dull abilities.