Take the GM out of the Equation- A 3e design philosophy

[Bregh]

Sure, but without the huge spell list it wouldn't be D&D anymore.

Try this:

Close your eyes
Imagine you're playing a 1st-level wizard
Pretend you don't have Magic Missile



THAT'S not D&D!!!!

Aha! Your edition bias is showing!

I never knew a wizard/m-u in earlier editions of the game who wouldn't have preferred sleep to mm any day!

 

[Henry]

Sleep spell was DA BOMB in 1st ed, YO!

 

[Von Ether]

Heck, I had never encountered a rules lawyer until 3e. 3e made some of my old players into lawyers. It even had them fighting over various interpretations of the rules.

And why did you ever leave this paradise?

For me, a lack of rules lawyers is like 1e and 2e mods that weren't run as dungeon crawls. Something I never saw in my gaming career and only heard of on the Internet.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Sure, but without the huge spell list it wouldn't be D&D anymore.

Try this:

Close your eyes
Imagine you're playing a 1st-level wizard
Pretend you don't have Magic Missile



THAT'S not D&D!!!!

No, it's heaven.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

MoogleEmpMog, I have to disagree with your division between rules and content. For many, many players, the example DC in the Skill chapter are not examples, but *rules*. If the book under Climb says the DC for climbing a brick wall is 15, then it is 15. If the DM says to roll against DC 18, then he is Wrong, and not rolling vs 15 is a House Rule.

No, the DM is Right by the Rules As Written. He can point to specific passages in the rules that state that he is absolutely correct, and that the player has an incomplete understanding.

Now, if the player gets a 27 to climb a ship's rigging (climb DC 10) and there are no apparent modifiers, then the DM either IS wrong (perhaps misreading the rules or constantly raising DCs so the players have about a 50% chance of success) or something very strange is going on. 9 times out of 10, it's the latter.

I disagree even more that feats and spells are content rather than rules. They are individual, specialized rules that are all different from each other. D&D would get a lot simpler if they dropped the huge spell list for a skill and feat centered effects based system. This is where most of the complexities lies, truth be told.

A feat that says "you don't take a -4 penalty for doing this" (Two-Weapon Fighting) or "you gain a +4 bonus while doing that" (Improved Grapple) is pure content, not rules. A feat that says "you can do this instead of that" (Spring Attack) is straddling the fence. A feat that has its own mechanics, odd bits and whatnot (Elusive Target) is probably a rule.

Most of the PHB feats are far more on the content side (manipulating modifiers and offering minor variants) rather than the rules side (redefining a task or presenting a complex exception).

Spells tend to have their own specialized rules, which is just another reason I hate them with a passion.

 

[francisca]

Then the players are being silly. The DC given is 15 for a typical brick wall. This particular brick wall isn't typical. End of "argument".

Yeah, what he said, with the addendum: my players never knew what the DC was in most cases. I'd decide, scribble it down on some scratch paper if I was winging it, or consult my notes if I prepped, and told them to roll a d20, and which skill to check. Sometimes, I didn't even tell them a skill, just roll a d20, and I looked at my copy of their sheet for skill ranks and sundry modifiers.

Of course, I'm kinda-sorta old-school that way.

 

[diaglo]

Sleep spell was DA BOMB in 1st ed, YO!

charm person was better.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

charm person was better.

Dang thing seemed to last forever...

TThe Auld Grump

 

[rogueattorney]

Try this:

Close your eyes
Imagine you're playing a 1st-level wizard
Pretend you don't have Magic Missile



THAT'S not D&D!!!!

I seem to have this book published in 1974, that has "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover of it, written by two felows named Gygax and Arneson. There are a bunch of rules for playing various types of characters in a fantasy role playing game. One of these characters is a magic-user who can cast a number of different spells. There are several spells listed as "first level spells" but none of them are Magic Missile.

Funny, I certainly thought this was Dungeons & Dragons.

(Magic Missile was introduced in the Greyhawk Supplement a year later, and as other posters have noted, didn't hold a candle to Sleep and Charm Person.)

EDIT - I should add that I agree with your point, it's just that MM was a bad example.

R.A.

 

[barsoomcore]

Was there some comment earlier in this thread about rules lawyers? Or did I imagine that?

Oh, never mind.