Take the Narrative Wounding Challenge.

[BryonD]

To me it seems like people have no problems believing six impossible things before breakfast, but that seventh? Not a chance.

Are you saying that there is no impossible thing anyone could ever suggest for your 4E game that you would ever find unacceptable? (unacceptable defined as "making the game less fun so you choose not to accept it.")

Or does this same standard apply to you?

Serious question.

Did Conan ever do anything "impossible"?
Would it be acceptable in a Conan story for him to get so mad that he threw fireballs out of his eyes and killed his foes that way?

Maybe it would be to you.
That would be unacceptable to me.
I love the impossible things Conan does. I love that there are impossible things that Conan so obviously can not do.
Fireballs from his eyes are unacceptable.
Major battle wounds that he can think away are unacceptable.

Are my positions regarding Conan reasonable?

 

[Pentius]

You are equating multiple days of bedrest to the instantaneous effects of surges.

There is no remotely reasonable equivalence here. You are again trying to force the anti-surge position to be compared to reality instead of the fiction standard that it actually intends to and does so well match.

Heroic fiction routinely allows character to be seriously wounded and not "beat on his chest all night screaming like King Kong, or what have you".
Heroic fiction DOES NOT allow character to think wounds closed.

The standard of difference on these two point is beyond obvious.

The second you try to compare to reality, you may as well just stop. Either address the point I've actually made or agree that it can't be done. (BTW, it can't be done.)

Given that in the post you quoted, I don't try to compare anything to reality, but instead pointed out multiple times that the only narratives that matter are ones your group will accept, and you still are on the reality issue, I'm bowing out. I'm done banging my head against this brick wall.

 

[BryonD]

Given that in the post you quoted, I don't try to compare anything to reality, but instead pointed out multiple times that the only narratives that matter are ones your group will accept, and you still are on the reality issue, I'm bowing out. I'm done banging my head against this brick wall.

Not using the word "reality" in no way changes the fact that you used an example of how someone that is wounded behaves that rejects the heroic fiction standard which has been established and, instead, ties back to how a real person would behave.

You can't show how 3E is inconsistent with heroic fiction and I can show how 4E is. You are trying to do the impossible, so I have no doubt that feels much like banging your head against a brick wall.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think a better word than realism here is plausibility. I am not really looking to emulate heroic fiction, nor am I looking for a physics engine, but I want something that feels somewhat plausible. It need not be 100% realistic. But there at least should be some recovery time for mundane healing for me to buy it (a day or more at least, preferably more). I can at least imagine how the character has got some of his strength back in that time. But the insta-heal is something I have a really hard time with.

 

[BryonD]

I think a better word than realism here is plausibility. I am not really looking to emulate heroic fiction, nor am I looking for a physics engine, but I want something that feels somewhat plausible. It need not be 100% realistic. But there at least should be some recovery time for mundane healing for me to buy it (a day or more at least, preferably more). I can at least imagine how the character has got some of his strength back in that time. But the insta-heal is something I have a really hard time with.

That's cool. Clearly we have a difference of opinion there. And neither side is right or wrong. Just as neither liking nor disliking surges is wrong.

Saying there is not a meaningful difference in having surges vs. not (for ANYONE's game, not just oneself) is, however, wrong.

 

[D'karr]

I know that this example is probably totally "unrealistic" of the way the game "should" play.

But this is what I want from the game. Whether its part of the Fantasy Fiction of the past or not.

En route to the Temple of Rah the party of adventurers walked right into an ambush from the deadly troglodytes they had been hunting. The lead scout was killed instantly under the intense barrage of arrows and darts. Koren, immediately moved to engage the enemy and with the assistance of the wizard and the rogue charged in wielding his two swords and took out two heavily fortified enemy positions. When the wizard was wounded, Koren, spotting 4 troglodyte snipers, killed all of them, moved the unconscious wizard to a safer location, and returned to lead repeated assaults against the troglodyte positions, killing several more of the nasty brutish creatures. He then moved to attack 2 additional troglodytes even with the heavy enemy attacks aimed towards him. He and the rogue kept on drawing fire, Koren was blown from his feet by the well placed fireball from a troglodyte shaman. Using his "second wind" he quickly recovered, charged in and single-handedly demolished the troglodyte shaman, before the rogue was wounded. Grabbing on to his swords in mighty rage, Koren, charged through the deadly barrage of arrows, and darts to eliminate another of the troglodytes. He moved his injured comrade to cover, replenished his arrows and returned to the forefront to brave the enemy fire and continue the fight. As the party decided to retreat, he carried the wounded wizard to the rear. As he returned to get the rogue, he was taken under fire by more troglodyte snipers, but raced beyond the front line fighter to attack, and kill the snipers. After moving the wounded wizard to a safe location, he returned to the front to cover the retreat of his party with a hail of arrows from his elven bow.

I know it's unrealistic and way too heroic to get knocked on your ass by a fireball and be wounded and just simply "quickly recover", but that is the type of action I want from my game.

BTW, except for the change to troglodytes, weapons, and the D&D party composition that is almost verbatim the real story of how Sgt. John F. Baker. Jr. was awarded the medal of honor in 1966. He is alive and well today.

I'd rather have my campaigns have that type of "heroic" action than heroes that have to spend 4 weeks on bed rest. But that's just me.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I give this one a solid B. Cardiac arrest is a smart angle to take.

I thought it reasonably explained the rat bite killing the tough fighter but not killing the anemic 2hp wizard.

However, it's still open to the criticism that no other form of strenuous activity will cause the inured fighter to arrest; riding 10 leagues, running in plate mail while carrying a sack of electrum pieces, bending bars/lifting gates, etc. There's just something special about the rat bite (or cat scratch)...

You never mentioned about jumping through all those hoops too!
I suppose you could still explain it that riding/running/bending bars will weary the fighter (and since he is pretty tough, he can still hang on while producing this effort), but it is the extreme pain of the bite (or alternative attack) that pushes him towards cardiac arrest and his deity. Pain straight to the brain, over adrenalize, and already sorely tested heart goes bye bye. I still like it.

It's a good way to describe it, but it still points to a system that's (willfully) terrible at modeling reality.

I have to agree that AD&D requires a lot of bashing and interpretation to "be used" in a somewhat realistic manner. 3e requires a little less bashing but like all versions of D&D, there are still some issues (although its flexibility as a tool is noteworthy).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I know that this example is probably totally "unrealistic" of the way the game "should" play.

But this is what I want from the game. Whether its part of the Fantasy Fiction of the past or not.

En route to the Temple of Rah the party of adventurers walked right into an ambush from the deadly troglodytes they had been hunting. The lead scout was killed instantly under the intense barrage of arrows and darts. Koren, immediately moved to engage the enemy and with the assistance of the wizard and the rogue charged in wielding his two swords and took out two heavily fortified enemy positions. When the wizard was wounded, Koren, spotting 4 troglodyte snipers, killed all of them, moved the unconscious wizard to a safer location, and returned to lead repeated assaults against the troglodyte positions, killing several more of the nasty brutish creatures. He then moved to attack 2 additional troglodytes even with the heavy enemy attacks aimed towards him. He and the rogue kept on drawing fire, Koren was blown from his feet by the well placed fireball from a troglodyte shaman. Using his "second wind" he quickly recovered, charged in and single-handedly demolished the troglodyte shaman, before the rogue was wounded. Grabbing on to his swords in mighty rage, Koren, charged through the deadly barrage of arrows, and darts to eliminate another of the troglodytes. He moved his injured comrade to cover, replenished his arrows and returned to the forefront to brave the enemy fire and continue the fight. As the party decided to retreat, he carried the wounded wizard to the rear. As he returned to get the rogue, he was taken under fire by more troglodyte snipers, but raced beyond the front line fighter to attack, and kill the snipers. After moving the wounded wizard to a safe location, he returned to the front to cover the retreat of his party with a hail of arrows from his elven bow.

I think recent versions of D&D easily produce that narrative. I think Pathfinder as well would be particularly suitable.

I'd rather have my campaigns have that type of "heroic" action than heroes that have to spend 4 weeks on bed rest. But that's just me.

But that's the beauty of magical healing. No 4 weeks out of it. However, would it not be cool to have both styles supported by the same system? So that you can have:
- No leaping off 200ft. cliffs but the continued hand to hand combat presented in your quote is still possible.
- A sleeping high level PC that can be killed by a dagger through the ear into the brain. Plot protection finishes when you get caught napping.
- Warlord healing of the abstract nature of hit points (rather than both physical and abstract).
- Getting badly wounded is serious business unless you have access to divine magic. It takes a long time to naturally heal, but significantly less time to heal magically.
- Suffocation effects inter-relate well with the system rather than being additional.
- Healing is viewed as a long term process but of short term consequences. A gash sustained might take only 3 days to not affect the PC any more but could take weeks to fully scar over (this is how I interpret hp damage in all versions of D&D).
- BUT with all of this, not creating a death spiral. I wish there was a way.

Both 3e and 4e have "two Pools" of resources related to damage and healing.
3e: lethal damage and nonlethal damage.
4e: hit points and healing surges.
I think JC is correct and I have certainly said before that you need to track two different things otherwise you end up with weird anomalies. You need to track the abstract nature of hit points and then separately track the physical damage. Abstract gets quickly restored while physical takes a long time without magic.

I suppose the question becomes how do you then shuffle in the myriad of "conditions" that the game seems to require. How do you tie all of these things together? I wonder if there is a way?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[JamesonCourage]

BTW, except for the change to troglodytes, weapons, and the D&D party composition that is almost verbatim the real story of how Sgt. John F. Baker. Jr. was awarded the medal of honor in 1966. He is alive and well today.

Well, he was blown off of his feet by a grenade, not hit by one (just like the fireball). The 3e HP mechanics (and the 4e HP mechanics) allow for taking a hit like that and keep going without a second wind or healing surge of any kind. That is, the hit doesn't take you out, and you continue to act, heroically unhindered, despite the wound received. 4e allows for a heroic surge (healing surge), which is cool, but the narrative can remain completely identical without them.

I don't mind healing surges conceptually, I just dislike the implementation. I wouldn't mind them restoring an "other" HP pool, but I don't like them when they're coupled with a "physical" HP pool. But that's my preference. You have yours, and that's cool. I'm glad the game works for you

I'd rather have my campaigns have that type of "heroic" action than heroes that have to spend 4 weeks on bed rest. But that's just me.

That's cool, and I respect that. I want a game that allows for both. I'm glad we each have a game that lets this happen for us. As always, play what you like

 

[Hussar]

I just don't see that as a meaningful counter example.

I'm certain that if we sat down and thought about it we could come up with a long list of things the 4E system does that 3E doesn't.

The question is: who cares?

I've never felt a lack of an ability for unconscious characters to spring back up as something I was missing. To the contrary, I'd put this in the same category (albeit much less problematic) as fighters shouldn't be able to make wounds disappear. If you are unconscious, then you are *unconscious*. I get that this goes back to avoiding "being out of the game". But I'm going to presume you've heard enough of my take on save or die, surges, relative character powers at specific tasks, etc... to know where I come down on being worried about getting a specific character back into the action as quickly as possible. To me it gets the very idea of "unconscious" wrong in the name of gamist expediency. I have no interest in that whatsoever.

So, yes, when (at least in this case) we talk about something I very specifically want to NOT have done, 4E does it and 3E does not. Thank you for adding another bullet point to my reasons to NOT play 4e....

But, now that I've conceded that 4E does something 3E does not, do you concede my point that 3E does the thing I have been talking about and 4E does not?

Actually, I thought I had largely conceded the "serious wound" thing quite a while ago. I still think it's a fairly corner case scenario, but, it is something that would be very difficult to do in 4e by RAW. Adding it in isn't terribly strenuous and if you look around, you'll find that there are a number of systems already available to add it back in. Typically uses the disease track system.

However, I'm frankly astonished at your reaction here considering how important "being in a novel" is to you. Is there a trope in fantasy more common than the "heroic comeback"? It appears all over the place in genre literature. There are tons of action movies and fantasy movies (and action fantasy movies) where the hero gets knocked down, left for dead, the bad guy turns to the crowd to deliver some sort of speach, the good guy gets off the ground and kicks the bad guy's ass.

I'd even venture to say that this is FAR more common than the hero being sidelined for days or weeks multiple times in the same movie.