Taking 20 on Open Lock

[Len]

No, taking 20 means doing it over until you get it right. It's right there in the rules:

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I don't know why some folks have trouble with rogues taking 20 to open locks. It makes perfect sense to me and seems to fit in with any theiving genre. When does a thief plan to break into the rich persons home and steal the jewels? When they leave town of course so that they have all the time they need to break the lock on the safe. It is what thieves do, why punish them by having them get attacked or otherwise penalized by contrived situational limitations just for using their abilities?

This is also why locks have pretty high DCs. It is not that uncommon for a well made (not exceptional or masterwork) lock to have a 30 DC for picking, putting it out of reach of low level rogues. But a mid level rogue will have no trouble with enough time. This makes sense.

If a DM really needs to keep a door shut then put a lock on one side and a bar on the other side.

 

[Dyntheos]

opening a "lock" also covers barred doors.

 

[Staffan]

Note that the DCs for locks were designed with Take 20 in mind. An "average" lock (and remember we aren't talking about modern day seven-tumbler locks here) is DC 25. If you don't allow take 20, that's going to be hit-and-miss even for a 5th level rogue (+8 ranks, +4 stat, +2 MW tools = +14), and a 5th level character is supposed to be pretty darn competent.

 

[cidak]

One module that I was recently reading suggested that a disable device was needed to over come a barred door which I like the idea of, but I can see I will have to discuss this with my gaming group.

edit...

Having just read the DMG (pg 61) it does talk about using open locks with barred doors. So you can ignore the this post.

 

[Pax]

I've often heard this argued but never backed up. If this is the way taking 20 works, it should be explicitly layed out as such in the rulebooks.

It is. From the SRD:

Taking 20: When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

Note the bits I put in color.

I've always assumed taking 20 just meant taking your time, making sure you didn't make any foolish mistakes, double checking, triple checking, and then triple checking again each step, etc... I thought taking 20 was making sure you took the time to do a job right, not trying it over and over again until you happen to get it right by sheer dumb luck.

No, what you have just described is Taking 10, not Taking 20.

Taking 20 is "if at first you don't succeed ... try, try again".

Note that the DCs for locks were designed with Take 20 in mind. An "average" lock (and remember we aren't talking about modern day seven-tumbler locks here) is DC 25. If you don't allow take 20, that's going to be hit-and-miss even for a 5th level rogue (+8 ranks, +4 stat, +2 MW tools = +14), and a 5th level character is supposed to be pretty darn competent.

Yeah. You're lucky, given the technology levels of default D&D, if it's a pin-and-tumbler lock at all, if it's only AVERAGE quality. More likely, the key in question simply fits a carefully-shaped groove, and rotates a simpel cogwheel setup to withdraw a bolt from the doorjamb.

And if it IS a pin-and-tumbler setup ... it's probably going to be a two- or three-pin lock, at most. Frankly, I'd call that more than a bit better than "Average", in fact.

A truly modern lock would be at least Amazing in difficulty - and that'd be for a basic, run-of-the-mill ordinary lock. The sort of padlock you could buy for under $5US, at Wal-Mart, for example.

 

[AuraSeer]

Yeah, what Pax said. Medieval locks were pretty much useless at stopping a determined intruder. If you had appropriate tools, it would have taken very little training to open an ordinary lock, and only a bit of practice to open even the most sophisticated.

I taught myself lockpicking while I was in college, and after just a few weeks' practice, I was able to open every door lock I attempted. Dorm rooms, friend's houses, the town Burger King, you name it. (All with permission, of course.) These were modern locks, with FAR better engineering and machining than any medieval blacksmith could have accomplished.

It usually took me a few minutes to open something, but the only tools I had were ones I made myself-- and remember, this was just a hobby. If I had a set of masterwork picks, and my livelihood and survival depended on my lockpicking skills, I could do a lot better.

Two minutes sounds like more than enough time for a trained, experienced locksmith (aka "high-level rogue") to open the toughest medieval lock ever created.

 

[tensen]

I fully expect most rogues to take 10 or take 20 on an open locks. Although rarely on the search for traps.

Think about how long it takes to do open locks normally? 1 round?
Go how and count how long it takes you to open the lock on your door at home... with the keys!!!

 

[der_kluge]

I'm with Pax - the general idea (for me), behind taking 20 is that you are, -theoretically- rolling a 1,2,3,4,5 up to a 20.

This can only be done if there isn't a time crunch. If the DM needs to know how long it really takes, he could just secretly roll a d20 and multiply that by rounds to see how long it takes for the rogue to open the lock.

I would also ascribe to the theory that just screwing around with any lock is enough to set off a trap. You can't take 20 on removing a trap, since it assumes that you are allowing failure to enter the picture.

 

[Majere]

Im just averse to it because it stops being fun to be a rogue.
It means you can find almost eny trap and open almost any door by level 5.

I take 20 on my search- you find nothing
I take 20 on open lock - the door unlocks
Next !!

Bleah
just reading that makes me shiver
But thats a personal thing.

I know your gonna put all sorts of stuff about time and DMs, but given 3.5 Buff spells are worth dick all and in REAL LIFE terms taking 2 takes all of a breath, there is no reason for people to do otherwise. To me it just erodes another part of the game that isnt combat.
Roll some dice, take a chance, if you screw up, go route 1 and blow the door off the hinges. It makes the game more interesting.

Majere
Majere