Taking 20

[Menexenus]

I'm not a new DM, but I'm usually a player. So I could definitely use some help with my DMing. Here's what I'm struggling with the most in my games: deciding when to allow players to Take 20 on a skill check.

As far as I can tell, the official rules on when a player can Take 20 are that it has to happen in a non-combat situation, there has to be no penalty for failing the skill check, and the skill must allow retries (see the bottom of p. 66 of the 3.5 PH for this important tidbit). The idea of Taking 20 is that you are trying over and over again until you do your absolute best, so if retries are impossible or if there is a penalty for failing the attempt, then you can't Take 20.

So it is clear that you can't Take 20 on Appraise or Knowledge or Decipher Script checks because they do not allow retries. That all makes perfect sense to me.

You also can't Take 20 on Balance, Climb, or Jump because there would be penalties for failing. That also makes perfect sense to me.

But what about something like Disable Device? It is clear that there is a penalty for failure (because if you fail by 5 or more you set off the trap). So Taking 20 should be disallowed according to the rules I've just summarized. But there is some strong evidence to the contrary. A) In Neverwinter Nights, Tommy (the halfling rogue) always Takes 20 to disarm traps. B) All the DCs I've ever seen for Disable Device are in the 20s or 30s (even in low level adventures) which seems to indicate to me that the designers are expecting players to be taking 20 on these rolls. C) Disabling a trap is not really like trying over and over again until you get it right. It's more like taking your time and being exceptionally careful so that your first attempt *is* your best attempt. (Here I'm imagining Indianna Jones trying to trade the bag of sand for the gold idol, or an FBI agent trying to disarm a bomb.)

Now one thing working against me here is that the 3.5 rules state specifically (on p. 65) that Taking 20 on a Disable Device check will automatically set off the trap (as if you failed by more than 4). If this is right, this means that trying to disable traps at low levels is virtually impossible and should never be attempted. Does this seem right to you?

Although I can't find where it says so, I assume that you also cannot take 20 on skills where competitive die rolls are required, like Move Silently, Hide, or Sense Motive. (Do these skills fall under the umbrella of cases where there is a penalty for failure?)

But if we put all of this together, there is almost nothing that you *can* Take 20 on. I'll show you with a table.

Skill

Take 20?​

-----------

------------​

Appraise

No (because no retries)​

Balance

No (because penalty for failure)​

Bluff

No (because no retries/competitive roll)​

Climb

No (because penalty for failure)​

Concentration

No (because most rolls are made in combat)​

Craft

No (because penalty for failure - ruining materials)​

Decipher Script

No (because no retries)​

Diplomacy

No (because competitive roll/penalty for failure)​

Disable Device

No (because penalty for failure)​

Disguise

No (because competitive roll/penalty for failure)​

Escape Artist

Yes!​

Forgery

No (because no retries)​

Gather Information

Yes (but it might take much longer than 2 minutes)​

Handle Animal

Yes!​

Heal

Rarely (when trying to determine how someone died) [Note: You can't take 20 for long-term care because retries aren't allowed unless you have reason to believe the first attempt failed.]​

Hide

No (because competitive roll/penalty for failure)​

Intimidate

No (because no retries/competitive roll)​

Jump

No (because penalty for failure)​

Knowledge

No (because no retries)​

Listen

Yes, unless against a competitive MS roll???​

Move Silently

No (because competitive roll/penalty for failure)​

Open Lock

Yes!​

Perform

No (because retries do not negate previous failures)​

Profession

No (because no retries)​

Ride

No (because most rolls are made in combat)​

Search

Yes!​

Sense Motive

No (because no retries/competitive roll)​

Sleight of Hand

No (because penalty for failure = minus 10 on subsequent rolls)​

Speak Language

No (no rolls made)​

Spellcraft

Rarely (only when studying a long-duration effect outside combat)​

Spot

Rarely (only when looking for something that you have reason to expect is there outside of combat when it is not a competitive die roll)​

Survival

No (because repetitive retries are not allowed)​

Swim

No (because penalty for failure)​

Tumble

No (because penalty for failure/usually made in combat)​

Use Magic Device

No (because penalty for rolling a 1/can't take 10)​

Use Rope

Yes!​

So, if my understanding of the rules surrounding Taking 20 is correct, then a player can only Take 20 on Use Rope, Search, Listen, Handle Animal, and Escape Artist checks (and only very rarely on Spellcraft, Spot, and Heal checks). Is this right, or am I missing something?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Sorry I couldn't figure out how to make a better table with vB Code. I'll edit this post if someone tells me how to make the table look better.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I voted "Some Other Option" because "Yes, I adhere to the RAW on this point" was not one of the choices. Your options assumed correctness in what you believe to be RAW, but since that's open for debate, I don't think you'll find the results of your poll meaningful.

This topic was most recently discussed in these threads:

Open locks, take 10 or 20?

Can you take 20?

 

[Menexenus]

Thanks for your response, Infiniti. You say there is some debate about what the rules say about Taking 20 on Disable Device checks. Here is what they say verbatim:

"Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure (for instance, a Disable Device check to disarm a trap), your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task (in this case, the character would most likely set off the trap)."

I assume that the authors say "most likely" because the trap could be so easy to disarm that even rolling a 1 would count as success for that character. Alternatively, the trap could be a special one that (for mechanical reasons) cannot be set off when trying to disarm it.

You say that there is some debate about this issue, but the wording seems pretty clear to me. Can you please enlighten me about how people differ on the interpretation of these words? I just (honestly) can't see how someone can read the words I quoted above differently than I am reading them (namely, that if you Take 20 to disarm a trap, you will set it off).

Thanks.

 

[Menexenus]

If there are those who are interested in this topic but don't want to take the time to read the 2 threads that Infiniti2000 gave us links to, the following post seemed to be the most informative.

Generally the guidepost for being able to take 20 is 'are there no consequences for failure, other than I don't succeed at what I wanted to do?'. And then of course there's the time requirement, and that you have to be able to try again, but that's seperate. So with that in mind, skills you can take 20 on:

Disguise (though it takes a long time to do so. 2-10 hours kind of long)
Escape Artist
Gather Information (depending on how your DM wants to handle the 'may draw attention to yourself' comment)
Handle Animal (except for rearing an animal)
Heal (to provide first aid)
Hide (but only if you're not rushed, threatened, etc which is pretty rare. Maybe if you're trying to camoflage something, or setting up an ambush well in advance)
Listen (if you're activly trying to hear something instead of making a passive check)
Open Lock
Search
Spellcraft (but only for certain uses, and can take truly stupid amounts of time.)
Spot (under similar conditions to Listen, above)
Survival (to find tracks, as well as follow tracks if you have the appropriate feat)
Use Rope (for uses other than securing a grappling hook)

What I'm learning from this experience is that my fellow gamers and I have been doing Take 20s all wrong for quite a while now. (I've also discovered how much you can learn just in the process of asking a well-formed question. I had to do so much research just to ask my original question, that, when it was done, it basically answered itself.)

 

[Menexenus]

So now I want to focus on a part of my original question that got a bit submerged under all the other stuff before. Is there anything in the D&D rules which simulates a person taking their time, concentrating, and being careful so that their first attempt is the best it can possibly be?

Again, when I think of someone disarming a trap, I think of someone working methodically, step-by-step, so that their attempt is the best it can possibly be. (I *don't* think of someone trying over and over again, as the Take 20 rules seem to assume.)

Is there a way in the D&D rules to model this *careful* behavior (rather than simple repetitive attempts). The Take 10 rules seem to be guaranteeing someone an *average* result when they are not performing under pressure. I'm looking for some kind of rules mechanic that guarantees me an *above average* result (without repetitive retries) when I take my time and am careful. Is there such a thing?

 

[Delta]

You might compare your list to Sean K. Reynolds' on the same subject. Probably I don't agree completely with either list.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html

 

[Menexenus]

Thanks for the link, Delta!

 

[Nail]

Nevermind.

 

[nittanytbone]

So now I want to focus on a part of my original question that got a bit submerged under all the other stuff before. Is there anything in the D&D rules which simulates a person taking their time, concentrating, and being careful so that their first attempt is the best it can possibly be?

Again, when I think of someone disarming a trap, I think of someone working methodically, step-by-step, so that their attempt is the best it can possibly be. (I *don't* think of someone trying over and over again, as the Take 20 rules seem to assume.)

Is there a way in the D&D rules to model this *careful* behavior (rather than simple repetitive attempts). The Take 10 rules seem to be guaranteeing someone an *average* result when they are not performing under pressure. I'm looking for some kind of rules mechanic that guarantees me an *above average* result (without repetitive retries) when I take my time and am careful. Is there such a thing?

Sure. Take 20 to find the trap (search check). You're carefully going over every square inch to find the mechanism.

Then, you take 10 on the disable device check. A typical level 3 rogue has +2 int, +6 ranks, +2 tools = +8 on the check. If he's smart, he can get circumstances right to make another +2 circumstance bonus (perhaps a MacGyver type contraption). One could also have the party cleric cast "guidance" (+1 on the check) or perhaps the wizard could cast an intelligence buff. Thus, taking 10, our low level rogue can get in the neighberhood of a DC20 check. This is well in the neighberhood to disable many of the CR3 example traps in the SRD -- even if it doesn't take care of the trap, it probably isn't low enough to set the sucker off.

If the trap is not disarmed after taking 10, then you can trust to the (highly variable) D20 and hope to roll higher than 10. Statistically, your odds of getting a roll or two that are higher than 10 aren't all that bad.

So, with this sort of approach, a thief has spent several minutes carefully searching. They then made 2-3 disable device checks to get a trap at the edge of their ability level.

Alternatively, the PLAYER can come up with a scheme to bypass, disable, or otherwise take care of the trap once the mechanism has been identified.

 

[Li Shenron]

Is there anything in the D&D rules which simulates a person taking their time, concentrating, and being careful so that their first attempt is the best it can possibly be?

Not really.

In a way, characters are always assumed to do everything at their best. For instance, there are no called shots but there are critical hits: you are assumed to be ALWAYS targetting a weak spot, but of course you succeed only sometimes.

You can use Take10, Take20 or some ad-hoc circumstance bonuses to represent an "extra care" situation, but it's not exactly what you get...

The Take 10 rule really suffers from the fact that in theory you are in perfect conditions for the job (no rush, no distractions), so how comes that you cannot do your best, but only average? The origin of this rule was the legitimate question about a character being able to achieve an actually minimum result in that circumstance. But what if you don't know that the minimum result is not enough, and you cannot retry? What if Take10 brings a serious failure?

I think the early authors of 3ed were often talking about Climb & Swim when addressing Take10: because you need to make a check every round, it is
(1) highly dangerous, you're going to roll a very low result now and then; it doesn't make sense that someone who can climb/swim just decently would fall/drown on the average after 2 minutes -> there must be something to prevent this
(2) rolling Climb/Swim every round is boring when there's nothing going on around you -> there must be a way to get over the whole hour-long trip quickly

But that doesn't really work for other skills. IMHO it doesn't make fully sense whenever rolling higher than 10 may achieve extra advantages.

Take20 was designed for a completely different problem: if you can retry, why wouldn't a player roll over and over until he gets a 20? Better to just give him the right to get that 20 without rolling the dice 20 times (average), and assume it took exactly the average amount or rolls necessary.
Take20 is very much a metagame rule originally, which is explained afterwards as "trying over and over".

BTW, I agree about quite everything in your list, but usually I don't draw lines too much ("this skill yes, this other skill no") but I rather think for a second about each in-game situation.

For instance, Listen depends whether what you are trying to hear is a continuous sound or not. For example: the party is in a dungeon and someone hears a strange noise in the background (a waterfall), the Rogue stops and puts the ear to the ground to guess what it is. Take20 make sense. It would not make sense if the noise was of someone opening a door once. When listening to people talking, Take20 is ambiguous; they are not going to repeat what they say, so you shouldn't allow take20 to understand the whole speech, but it makes sense that listening for a very long time may tell you which language they are speaking or how many people are talking. In this case, I usually use a different approach: I let the PC roll once and depending on the result I give complete/uncomplete informations.