Talent Trees & D&D

mmadsen said:
Why introduce the notion of talent trees when a bonus feat list can accomplish the same thing? From the get-go the Fighter class has been flexible, yet clearly themed. Why not give each class a tailored bonus feat list?
Even the fighter class have dead levels.

What better way to customize the fighter class than to give them level-based class feature options (plural)?
 

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Jer said:
When the next revision of the D&D rules comes, I'd love to see a Telent system implemented, along with a reduction in the number of core classes. I'd think that you could reduce the number of base classes down to 4 or possibly 5 base classes and still be able to cover all of the current core classes with a set of well thought-out Talent trees.
Additionally, such a system would codify all the substitution levels and alternate class abilities from the splatbooks into a seamless system. You don't have "lose: That. Gain: That" - instead you can just offer some new talents.

Much better, especially, since we have a sort-of talent trees right now, with all these alternate abilities and the previous substitution levels.
 

When musing over the possibility of streamlining the classes and feats via talent trees one really needs to consider; will this really support WotC's current business model of releasing tons of player option materials. If it does not then where would they make their 4E bacon?
 

Shadeydm said:
...will this really support WotC's current business model of releasing tons of player option materials.
Yes. You can fill endless books with alternate talent trees, just as with alternate class features. From a business point of view, it's like feats - modular options. And that's good.
 

Ranger REG said:
Even the fighter class have dead levels.

What better way to customize the fighter class than to give them level-based class feature options (plural)?
I think it makes far more sense to give a class a bonus feat every level than to split its abilities into bonus feats and talents and offer one on odd levels and the other on even levels.
 

mmadsen said:
I think it makes far more sense to give a class a bonus feat every level than to split its abilities into bonus feats and talents and offer one on odd levels and the other on even levels.

Ok, last example.

In SW:SE and D20 Modern, Evasion (all or nothing damage on reflex saves) is a talent, usually for agile classes (scout, fast hero). In D&D, its the pervue of rogues, rangers, and monks. Evasion is a POWERFUL ability, essentially negating such spells like fireball, lightning bolt, and other "area" spells.

In your suggestion, Evasion is a feat, probably with a modest pre-req (reflex save +3 or something).

What stops the fighter, cleric, and wizard from taking evasion now? Avoiding area damage for 1 feat is POWERFUL, and if you have 20 feats to fill, surely one to avoid worrying about cone of cold is worth it, no? So pretty soon, the evasion feat becomes a default choice for anyone who expects to be facing a 5th level or higher caster and spells like fireball become "don't roll poor, you're toast" rather than a legitamate threat.

And if you respond with: "Well, make it a feat that only rogues can take", then what is the difference between a class-exclusive feat and a talent? ;)
 

Remathilis said:
In your suggestion, Evasion is a feat, probably with a modest pre-req (reflex save +3 or something).

What stops the fighter, cleric, and wizard from taking evasion now? Avoiding area damage for 1 feat is POWERFUL, and if you have 20 feats to fill, surely one to avoid worrying about cone of cold is worth it, no? So pretty soon, the evasion feat becomes a default choice for anyone who expects to be facing a 5th level or higher caster and spells like fireball become "don't roll poor, you're toast" rather than a legitamate threat.
Any time you have a choice that is a non-choice -- where one option is the clear winner -- then that option is too good, at least relative to the other choices. Its benefits are too great, or its costs are too low.

There are any number of ways to tackle Evasion specifically, and I haven't given it a great deal of thought, but a few things come to mind.

First, I do not see much conceptual reason why a great warrior would not be able to jump out of the way of dangerous attacks. That is, I don't see a strong flavor reason for restricting Evasion -- in fact, it's practically mandatory for action heroes, especially with any anime or wuxia influence. Our concern is with game balance.

One way to increase the cost of a feat is to add prereqs, and we can add a prereq that reinforces the flavor we looking for: 5 ranks of Tumble.

Another way to increase the cost and reduce the benefit is to break the feat into two feats. Maybe Proto-Evasion only works if you're within your movement allowance of cover, and Real-Evasion works as normal.

Or maybe we can just reduce the benefit and have Evasion drop half damage to quarter damage.

There are any number of ways to tweak a concept to make it worth one feat slot. And in a future edition, if all classes had bonus feat lists with one feat per level, would characters need non-bonus feats?
 

Remathilis said:
And if you respond with: "Well, make it a feat that only rogues can take", then what is the difference between a class-exclusive feat and a talent? ;)

The main difference would be that you wouldn't have 3 points for feats and 3 points for talents at level 6 and would instead have 6 points for feats, which could be spent in any combination of what would have been talents and feats.

There's also the ease of keeping the same nomenclature for players instead of creating another kind of thing that is available.
 

mmadsen said:
I think it makes far more sense to give a class a bonus feat every level than to split its abilities into bonus feats and talents and offer one on odd levels and the other on even levels.
Ah, but you still need to meet the prereqs of those feats, which varies a lot, whether they're part of their own feat tree or not. Talent tree is different, the prereq is minimal, usually requires "low-level" talents in the beginning.
 

Psion said:
Tonguez said:
Personally I think this would be great!

I'd love to see a character creation system based on Talent Trees instead of a pilifieration of PrCs and alt-Base Classes.
Feats to give access to non-standard Talents and other 'one off' abilities.
PrCs would be a set of Talents which a PC can access (by joining a new organisation or being struck by Lightning - whatever)

By mixing talents you'd create whatever class you desire...
This may or may not surprise you, but such a product exists now. There's been some discussion of it over on the D20 modern and other forum.

POSTMODERN: Fantastic Classes
Well, thanks for the mention, Psion, even though it went completely ignored. :D

Anyhow, here is our take on the Rogue-- the Cunning Hero-- as an example of how this could be done. Keep in mind, this is adapted for Modern, so it does not match up exactly (for example, trapfinding would not really make sense in the Modern context):
POSTMODERN: Fantastic Classes said:
THE CUNNING HERO
The world is a dangerous place, and no one understands that better than the Cunning hero. Constantly alert for danger, the Cunning hero knows that the best defense is often a good offense, and so he develops the skills to be just as dangerous as his environment. At any second, the Cunning hero can burst into action, avoiding harm with preternatural instinct or striking an opponent with uncanny precision and speed. Such heroes often live on the wrong side of the law, using their abilities to make a dishonest living while avoiding unwanted attention through stealth and guile.

Hit Die: 1d6
Action Points: Cunning heroes gain a number of action points equal to 5 + one-half their character level, rounded down, at 1st level and every time they attain a new level in this class.
Class Skills: The Cunning hero’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (mechanical, pharmaceutical) (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (civics, current events, popular culture, streetwise) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Read/Write Language (none), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (none), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).
Also, the starting occupation the character selects can provide additional class skills to choose from.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (9 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 9 + Int modifier.

Table: The Cunning Hero
Level Attack Fort Ref Will Class Features Defense Rep
1st +0 +0 +1 +0 New talent +3 +0
2nd +1 +0 +2 +0 Bonus feat +4 +0
3rd +2 +1 +2 +1 New talent +4 +1
4th +3 +1 +2 +1 Bonus feat +5 +1
5th +3 +1 +3 +1 New talent +5 +1
6th +4 +2 +3 +2 Bonus feat +6 +2
7th +5 +2 +4 +2 New talent +6 +2
8th +6/+1 +2 +4 +2 Bonus feat +7 +2
9th +6/+1 +3 +4 +3 New talent +7 +3
10th +7/+2 +3 +5 +3 Bonus feat +8 +3

Starting Feats
In addition to the two feats all characters get at 1st level, a Cunning hero begins play with the Simple Weapons Proficiency feat.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Cunning hero.

New Talent
At 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, the Cunning hero selects a talent from the following talent trees. Some trees have a set order that must be followed, while others provide a list to choose from. As long as the character qualifies, he or she can select freely from any and all talent trees. No talent can be selected more than once unless expressly indicated.

Defensive Talent Tree
The character gains the ability to improve his or her innate defensive talents as the character attains new levels.
Evasion*: If the character is exposed to any effect that normally allows a character to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, the character suffers no damage if he or she makes a successful saving throw. Evasion can only be used when wearing light armor or no armor.
Uncanny Dodge 1*: The character retains his or her Dexterity bonus to Defense regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by a hidden attacker. (The character still loses his or her Dexterity bonus to Defense if the character is immobilized.)
Prerequisite: None.
Prescient Dodge: When using the Dodge feat, the character can declare the dodge bonus granted by the feat applies to the next character that attacks her. The dodge bonus will apply to this character for the remainder of the round.
Prerequisites: Evasion.
Trap Sense: The character gains a circumstance bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and to Defense against attacks made by traps. This bonus is equal to his or her character level divided by 3 (round down).
Prerequisite: Character level 3, any talent from the Defensive Talent Tree.
Uncanny Dodge 2*: The character can no longer be flanked; the character can react to opponents on opposite sides of him or herself as easily as he or she can react to a single attacker.
Prerequisites: Evasion, uncanny dodge 1.
Defensive Roll*: The character can roll with a potentially lethal attack to take less damage from it. When the character would be reduced to 0 hit points or less by damage in combat (from a ranged or melee attack), the character can attempt to roll with the damage.
A character spends 1 action point to use this talent. Once the point is spent, the character makes a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he or she takes only half damage. The character must be able to react to the attack to execute a defensive roll—if the character is immobilized, he or she can’t use this talent.
Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the character’s evasion talent doesn’t apply to the defensive roll.
Prerequisites: Evasion, uncanny dodge 1.
Prescient Evasion: Once per game session the character may reroll a failed Reflex save, and add his Wisdom modifier to the roll.
Prerequisites: Evasion, prescient dodge.
Opportunist: The character can spend 1 action point to use this talent. Once the point is spent, the character can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the character’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a character with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use this talent more than once per round.
Prerequisite: Evasion.

Instinctive Response Talent Tree
The Cunning hero gains the instinctual ability to react quickly and effectively to unexpected danger.
Full Alert: The Cunning hero gets a +4 circumstance bonus on initiative checks. This bonus stacks with the one provided by the Improved Initiative feat (providing a +8 bonus if the Cunning hero has both).
Improved Evasion*: If the Cunning hero is exposed to any effect that normally allows a Cunning hero to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage (such as getting caught in a grenade blast), the Cunning hero suffers no damage if she makes a successful saving throw and only half damage on a failed save. Improved evasion can only be used when wearing light armor or no armor.
Prerequisites: Evasion, plus any two other talents from this talent tree and/or the Defensive Talent or Increased Speed Talent Trees.
Heightened Reflexes: The Cunning hero can choose to take 10 on any Reflex saving throw. She may also spend 1 action point to gain a +10 bonus on a Reflex saving throw. She may choose to take 10, or spend an action point to gain the +10 bonus, or both.
Prerequisites: Evasion (from the Defensive talent tree), full alert, improved evasion.

Thug Talent Tree
The Cunning hero understands how to hit someone where it hurts the most.
Sneak Attack: Any time the Cunning hero’s target would be denied her Dexterity bonus to Defense (whether she actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), the Cunning hero’s attack deals +1d6 points of damage. Should the Cunning hero score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. It takes precision and penetration to hit a vital spot, so ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is 30 feet away or less. With a sap or an unarmed strike, the Cunning hero can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of normal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals normal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty, because he must make optimal use of his weapon in order to execute the sneak attack. A Cunning hero can only sneak attack living creatures with discernible anatomies. Additionally, any creature immune to critical hits is similarly immune to sneak attacks. Also, the Cunning hero must also be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. The Cunning hero cannot sneak attack while striking at a creature with concealment or by striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. If the Cunning hero gains sneak attack from another class or feat, the bonus dice from the various sneak attacks stack.
Sneak Attack 2: The bonus damage from the Cunning hero’s sneak attack is increased to +2d6.
Prerequisites: Cunning hero level 3, sneak attack
Sneak Attack 3: The bonus damage from the Cunning hero’s sneak attack is increased to +3d6.
Prerequisites: Cunning hero level 5, sneak attack 2
Sneak Attack 4: The bonus damage from the Cunning hero’s sneak attack is increased to +4d6.
Prerequisites: Cunning hero level 7, sneak attack 3
Sneak Attack 5: The bonus damage from the Cunning hero’s sneak attack is increased to +5d6.
Prerequisites: Cunning hero level 9, sneak attack 4
Crippling Strike: A Cunning hero with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack, base attack bonus +5
Death Attack: If the Cunning hero studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (the Cunning hero’s choice). While studying the victim, the Cunning hero can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the Cunning hero or recognize her as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + one half the Cunning hero’s level + the Cunning hero’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, he is reduced to -1 hit points, just as if he had failed a save against massive damage. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the Cunning hero. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the Cunning hero has completed the 3 rounds of study, she must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the Cunning hero does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before she can attempt another death attack.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack, base attack bonus +7

GM's Note: Sneak Attack?
In a game with the Modern system’s Massive Damage Threshold, the sneak attack talent of the Thug talent tree can be very powerful. While we have not found it to be unbalancing or disruptive, if you are uncomfortable feel free to replace the Cunning hero’s Thug Talent Tree with any Fast hero talent tree of your choice.


Bonus Feats
At 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level, the Cunning hero gains a bonus feat. This feat must be selected from the following list, and the Cunning hero must meet any prerequisites.
Acrobatic, Armor Proficiency (light), Athletic, Attentive, Blind-Fight, Brawl, Cautious, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Cunning Plus***, Deceptive, Defensive Martial Arts, Dodge, Double Tap, Drive By Attack, Elusive Target, Far Shot, Focused, Heroic Surge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Low Profile, Meticulous, Mobility, Nimble, Personal Firearms Proficiency, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Run, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse, or any new feat (one not included in the d20 Modern roleplaying game) that has one or more of these listed feats as a prerequisite.

*** New Feat: CUNNING PLUS
The advancements of the modern world, coupled with your drive to excel, enable you to progress faster toward becoming a truly cunning hero.
Benefit: You gain two talents from the Cunning hero’s talent trees. The talents must be selected from the following list, you cannot select more than one talent from a single talent tree, and you must meet all the prerequisites of a talent to select it.
Evasion, Full Alert, Uncanny Dodge, Uncanny Dodge 2, Improved Evasion, Sneak Attack 2.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you select this feat, you must choose a different pair of talents (although talents that explicitly state they can be selected more than once may be gained with multiple iterations of this feat).
This is something like how we think D&D could be done too. People keep saying SAGA is a "4E preview." If so, things like this are the Future of D&D.
 
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