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Tank Theory

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
Or most likely because the DM set up soft encounters in friendly terrain and where he spread damage around without being forced to.

Not so much really. The group I am doing this with happens to enjoy a high risk game. The encounters were in dungeons and often designed to kill us explicitly. Featuring elite brutes with threatening reach to eat up our resources, skirmisher and lurker heavy combats that arrived in waves, and terrain that would hinder us but not the enemy (against a spider in it's webs for instance). We were forced to retreat on more than one occasion, but if you aren't retreating every once and a while your DM isn't challenging you.

I must also point out that just because we didn't have a defender, it doesn't mean we didn't have a leader.
 

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Ridley's Cohort

First Post
Because your assessment that fighters and wizards fulfill the same role is just plain wrong.

I certainly never said that. But I can understand, given how vague and abstract some parts of my argument were, why you might jump to such a conclusion.

Let me clarify.

What I actually said was "at an abstract level Defender and Controller serve the same purpose". "Serve the same purpose" could be translated into "the primary compelling reason to choose this class rather than some other would be to gain capabilities associated with an Anti-Leader".

Even if this viewpoint of Anti-Leader (inspired directly by Mearls comments on the Wizard) were correct, it is does not logically follow that I claim to know if any of the existing classes genuinely fulfill that role (i.e., maybe the Wizard is an Anti-Leader but sucks at that role?)

I recognize that the most reliable way of inflicting a degree of ineffectiveness on the other team would be through offering a compelling target with strong AC and many HPs. But is that the only practical way of accomplishing this goal? Even if the Wizard were not capable of doing so (which I do not have a strong opinion on either way), perhaps we could imagine a balanced character class that could accomplish as much without relying primarily on AC and HP.

It certainly was not true in 3e that a party required a Tank. Is it really true that a party is crippled without a Tank in 4e?
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
'Serve the same purpose' and 'fill the same role' means the same thing. You are splitting hair, IMO.

The Defenders aren't 'anti-leader'. If you insist on that kind of labels, they are anti-striker. Instead of focusing on doing a lot of damage, they focus on taking damage. Instead of having a lot of powers that move them in position to strike, they typically have powers that move their friends to safety. Typically, they are the striker's best friend for that reason.
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
Not so much really. The group I am doing this with happens to enjoy a high risk game.

All right, I'll bite.

Tell me what was the party composition and what were those tough encounters and how you avoided getting your vulnerable members mobbed and killed.

Plus, you said you were retreating... How often, exactly? Because a retreat is a defeat in my book. Especially if a better balanced team would have won. How many encounters a day?
 


Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
All right, I'll bite.

Tell me what was the party composition and what were those tough encounters and how you avoided getting your vulnerable members mobbed and killed.

Plus, you said you were retreating... How often, exactly? Because a retreat is a defeat in my book. Especially if a better balanced team would have won. How many encounters a day?

Cleric, Ranger, and Wizard. Used allot of bottlenecking, forced movement and a little bit of temporary hps to soften blows. Did you know that corpses count as rough terrain? Handy when you are trying to keep people away from you.

I am sorry I don't have the specifics of the encounters, as I was not the DM. I do recall one of the encounters we ran away from being two moderately overbudget encounters shoved into one (unlucky timing for us perhaps)
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
Cleric, Ranger, and Wizard. Used allot of bottlenecking, forced movement and a little bit of temporary hps to soften blows. Did you know that corpses count as rough terrain? Handy when you are trying to keep people away from you.

The laser cleric has a range of 5.

You started this argument with the idea that the best defense was not getting hit. How can your cleric possibly avoid getting hit in melee? How can you seriously tell me it's better to play without a defender when you have a frigging laser cleric who hangs out 5 square away from the monsters?

I'd have to see the monsters and maps, but it seems to me that nothing, and certainly not difficult terrain from dead bodies, could prevent me from attacking the cleric constantly. Which effectively turns him into the defender of the group. A low AC, low HP defender. The fact that he isn't sticky wouldn't matter though; I'd just target him until he died.

You say you used bottleneck... With what? If a laser cleric or a wizard can hold a bottleneck it's because I am right; the DM was cuddling you.

Swap that laser cleric for a warlord, a paladin or a strenght cleric and you'd see your party's performance skyrocket.
 
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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
The laser cleric has a range of 5.
It is also the longest range leader there was at the time, contrasted with the warlords range of melee.

You started this argument with the idea that the best defense was not getting hit. How can your cleric possibly avoid getting hit in melee? How can you seriously tell me it's better to play without a defender when you have a frigging laser cleric who hangs out 5 square away from the monsters?
By not being in melee range as much as possible? Sometimes clerics get get hit, that is true even with a defender in the party.

I'd have to see the monsters and maps, but it seems to me that nothing, and certainly not difficult terrain from dead bodies, could prevent me from attacking the cleric constantly. Which effectively turns him into the defender of the group. A low AC, low HP defender. The fact that he isn't sticky wouldn't matter though; I'd just target him until he died.
That would only make the encounters easier, as now the enemies are being incredibly dumb, ignoring everyone else in battle.

You say you used bottleneck... With what? If a laser cleric or a wizard can hold a bottleneck it's because I am right; the DM was cuddling you.
It is a dungeon, there are tunnels, doors, walls and corners. I must refute this idea you have of cuddling, as your defender group dosn't have to run from every battle, and therefore must be spoon-fed monsters to kill. :p

Swap that laser cleric for a warlord, a paladin or a strenght cleric and you'd see your party's performance skyrocket.
Not really. Devoted clerics have many control options that the alternatives you suggested do not.
In fact, a warlord would make the party nearly unplayable seeing as how warlord powers practically require another ally in melee combat with them.
 

Mal Malenkirk

First Post
By not being in melee range as much as possible? Sometimes clerics get get hit, that is true even with a defender in the party.

At a range of 5? That's never enough to prevent the opposition to reach you. He's being hit every turn.


That would only make the encounters easier, as now the enemies are being incredibly dumb, ignoring everyone else in battle.

Oh come on. You just basically admitted that your DM needlessly spread the attacks around. Focused fire is such a basic technique. PCs use it all the time and half the point of the defender is to allow the party to survive the same when turned against them.

The cleric wouldn't survive two round of focused fire alone on the front if the DM decided to go for it.

It is a dungeon, there are tunnels, doors, walls and corners.

I meant who is doing the bottling. I would think that the sentence ''If a laser cleric can hold a bottle neck...'' would have made it clear enough. A proper bottle neck has somebody tough preventing enemies from moving through the narrow point.

In a real time game, you can hold a bottle neck without melee troops in the narrow point; the fact that the enemies slow down to get through is enough for ranged attackers to have a devastating effect. But in a turn based game, there can be no bottle neck without the doorman; if nothing forces the enemies to stop in the narrow point, the enemies will just complete their moves on the other side of the bottle neck one after the other with none of the jamming that occurs in real time game.

Every PC you have on your team is soft and needs to shift back constantly in order to avoid AoO so they can basically only hold one round. That's no way to run a proper bottle neck.

Beside, bottleneck is the reverse if what you were arguing. It's not about staying out of reach; someone has to jam the enemies and take hits.
 
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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
At a range of 5? That's never enough to prevent the opposition to reach you. He's being hit every turn.
Never say never. There are abilities that apply conditions such as slow, stun and daze, and a more than a few ways to impede the movement of the enemy.


Oh come on. You just basically admitted that your DM needlessly spread the attacks around. Focused fire is such a basic technique. PCs use it all the time and half the point of the defender is to allow the party to survive the same when turned against them.
Sorry no, you are completely wrong about this point. In your case it wasn't focus fire, it was incompetence on behalf of the enemy. You would have had the enemy ignore an extremely soft target, the wizard, at all times, in favor of mindlessly going after one target. Even if enemy is right next to the wizard already, even if the cleric is on the other side of a room filled with deathtraps. There is no justification for that, it is a bad tactic, and it only would have made the encounter exploitable.

The cleric wouldn't survive two round of focused fire alone on the front if the DM decided to go for it.
And the DM could just as easily say "Rocks fall, cleric dies." Even a defender can't survive two rounds of focus fire if the DM decided to kill them. Unless you are referring to the HP difference between a cleric and a fighter, which is exactly 32 hit points at level 30. Hardly an insurmountable difference when the cleric has access to more, and better, healing powers than the fighter does. But either way this point is irrelevant, as we are not trying to make a Cleric into a defender, there is already a paragon path to do that if we chose to do so.

I meant who is doing the bottling. I would think that the sentence ''If a laser cleric can hold a bottle neck...'' would have made it clear enough. A proper bottle neck has somebody tough preventing enemies from moving through the narrow point.
You don't need somebody tough, you just need an obstruction.

In a real time game, you can hold a bottle neck without melee troops in the narrow point; the fact that the enemies slow down to get through is enough for ranged attackers to have a devastating effect. But in a turn based game, there can be no bottle neck without the doorman; if nothing forces the enemies to stop in the narrow point, the enemies will just complete their moves on the other side of the bottle neck one after the other with none of the jamming that occurs in real time game.
It is actually allot easier to bottleneck in a turn based game than you would imply, as everyone occupies a space. Also the rules prevent move-attack-move rounds for most characters, effectively limiting the amount of enemies that can contact anyone in melee when faced with a bottleneck.

Every PC you have on your team is soft and needs to shift back constantly in order to avoid AoO so they can basically only hold one round. That's no way to run a proper bottle neck.
This is what conditions are for, they make encounters much more survivable than if everything was a simple slobbernocker. Which is a key point to this debate, control can make up for a lack of a defender.

Beside, bottleneck is the reverse if what you were arguing. It's not about staying out of reach; someone has to jam the enemies and take hits.
It is effectively staying out of reach of all the enemies that cannot hit you due to something being in their way. And you were the one who brought up how this party couldn't possibly work in an enclosed environment, a different but related argument. Just because this party favors a specific strategy, it doesn't mean they cannot adapt to others.

All and all, I think you are too dominated by the "must have a defender" rut, as most people are. 4E is remarkably more flexible than that, and I wish people would realize this, because it can add a refreshing spin to games. However this is slightly off-topic and I believe it may have derailed the thread.
 

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