D&D 5E Tedium for balance. Should we balance powerful effects with bookkeeping?

[Vaalingrade]

What exactly does this system plan to do to deter the guy who creates a whole new list of prepared spells for his wizard every day, counts his arrows and rations, updates his encumbrance when his character picks up a shiny rock, didn't buy a component pouch so they're looking for components all the time, and tracks their own XP--all without the DM asking or even wanting them to.

Not even talking about the people who will choke on any requirement if it means they get the reward, I'm talking about the natural accountant with a pen especially for his taxes who numbers and labels his socks who thrives on this kind of thing.

 

[MichaelSomething]

What exactly does this system plan to do to deter the guy who creates a whole new list of prepared spells for his wizard every day, counts his arrows and rations, updates his encumbrance when his character picks up a shiny rock, didn't buy a component pouch so they're looking for components all the time, and tracks their own XP--all without the DM asking or even wanting them to.

Not even talking about the people who will choke on any requirement if it means they get the reward, I'm talking about the natural accountant with a pen especially for his taxes who numbers and labels his socks who thrives on this kind of thing.

Then that person is highly skilled and will rightfully olberate any scenario the DM throws at them.

In a game of resource management, the best manager will naturally have an edge.

 

[Mecheon]

Then that person is highly skilled and will rightfully olberate any scenario the DM throws at them.

In a game of resource management, the best manager will naturally have an edge.

Is that really highly skilled, though? Like. I am skilled at video games. I hold three world records. My skill doesn't come from counting what I have, it comes from the execution of how to play it, my experience playing it, my knowledge of how to handle bad situations and compensate on the fly

And as D&D is a Tabletop Role Playing Game, then I'm of the opinion Role Playing should be the thing that's rewarded. Not bookkeeping. We're here to roll dice and have our characters go on adventures, not book up Excel and go through spreadsheets. All this minutia and busywork is just getting away from the real meat of the game and it involves rules that people have ignored for years because it took away from the aspects people enjoyed, and didn't bring enough to add in. Making it strong to deal with is just, making people engage with it for strength alone and not enjoyment. Why bother?

I disagree strongly that it should be rewarded that high or be more than a personal choice. Some people like the absolute nose to the grindstone hardness of RLCraft or the like, where Minecraft's whole 'punch trees' start is instead completely removed, but others of us would instead like to play the game and not have to worry about a 600 hp dragon descending from the sky 5 minutes into playing because no limit was placed on where the Ice and Fire dragons could spawn and those things have a targetting range as high as the map is wide and will just instantly obliterate you from off-screen. The end result of using it or not is the same, its just one path leads to "Strip-mining the nether for cobalt to make Ardite" a bit faster

 

[MichaelSomething]

Is that really highly skilled, though? Like. I am skilled at video games. I hold three world records. My skill doesn't come from counting what I have, it comes from the execution of how to play it, my experience playing it, my knowledge of how to handle bad situations and compensate on the fly

And as D&D is a Tabletop Role Playing Game, then I'm of the opinion Role Playing should be the thing that's rewarded. Not bookkeeping. We're here to roll dice and have our characters go on adventures, not book up Excel and go through spreadsheets. All this minutia and busywork is just getting away from the real meat of the game and it involves rules that people have ignored for years because it took away from the aspects people enjoyed, and didn't bring enough to add in. Making it strong to deal with is just, making people engage with it for strength alone and not enjoyment. Why bother?

I disagree strongly that it should be rewarded that high or be more than a personal choice. Some people like the absolute nose to the grindstone hardness of RLCraft or the like, where Minecraft's whole 'punch trees' start is instead completely removed, but others of us would instead like to play the game and not have to worry about a 600 hp dragon descending from the sky 5 minutes into playing because no limit was placed on where the Ice and Fire dragons could spawn and those things have a targetting range as high as the map is wide and will just instantly obliterate you from off-screen. The end result of using it or not is the same, its just one path leads to "Strip-mining the nether for cobalt to make Ardite" a bit faster

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."

 

[CleverNickName]

is the first one supposed to be a short rest?

That wasn't my intention, but I suppose it could be. (Sorry for the late reply; I'm feeling a bit out-of-sorts.)

 

[Fifth Element]

Because things that aren't balanced shouldn't exist? Definitely a matter of opinion there.

I'm going to save you some time here hopefully in future - nearly everything someone says in a discussion forum such as this is their opinion. Pointing out that it's an opinion doesn't contribute anything. We already know it's an opinion. It's the same as posting "I disagree" by itself. Cool, you disagree. That's not discussion.

 

[Fifth Element]

In a game of resource management, the best manager will naturally have an edge.

Dungeons & Dragons: the World's Most Popular Game of Resource Management (tm). Not sure it has the same ring to it.

 

[Mecheon]

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."

I mean, you're welcome to give it a shot if you reckon you can out logistics me.

Goes for like a buck on Steam. Here's Hard, here's Normal, here's Easy.

Regardless though, the gameplay loop that should be rewarded is the one that is the most enjoyable. You can certainly do a lot of logistics to play a good Outlaw rogue in WoW, having to balance 2 buffs that constnatly drop off and multiple cooldowns.... Or, y'know. Save yourself the RSI and just play Fury Warrior for much less management, much simpler playstyle, and only needing to worry about two buffs.

Equally so from a DM perspective, if one class in the game requires you and a player to have to keep track of so much nonsense and no other class does, it kind of forces you to have to pay more attention to that one player and that's not going to go down great with other players, yet alone the fact, as a DM, there's already so much else you do have to keep track of seperate. And now due to one person picking the nonsense class stuff just doubled for you.. I gotta say in the same situation I'd probably be aiming to just ban the class. Folks ban flying races for less, after all

 

[Lanefan]

It was never a week of downtime. The cleric would have them full in a day or two. You're not waiting on the fighter's hp to recover, you're waiting for the cleric's spell slots to recover.

Well, that depends on a) whether you've got a Cleric in the party and b) how many slots said Cleric has in relation to the amount of hit points the party needs to recover.

But either way you're still waiting, which is IMO the important piece here.

 

[Lanefan]

What exactly does this system plan to do to deter the guy who creates a whole new list of prepared spells for his wizard every day, counts his arrows and rations, updates his encumbrance when his character picks up a shiny rock, didn't buy a component pouch so they're looking for components all the time, and tracks their own XP--all without the DM asking or even wanting them to.

Nothing, I hope.