Teleport foes over a cliff - Forked Thread: Push+Wall=save

[catsclaw227]

Forked from: Push+Wall=save

Many teleportation powers say you can't teleport someone vertically, but others do not. Technically the ones that don't say anything can put the enemy anywhere. However, the rules in the PHB seem to be based almost entirely on two-dimensional battles, and some things (like Maelstrom of Chaos) can get quite crazy if you add in the third dimension.

I'd think very hard before allowing it, as it can get pretty ugly. You may soon find yourself wanting to have every fight on a flat open plain so the party can only do a few d10s of falling damage by teleporting their foes. If you do let it happen, make sure the monsters do it too sometimes. I suggest Githzerai Zerths, or for higher level games, lots and lots of Green Slaads.

I understand that vertical teleportation is a tricky thing to get into, and it maybe needs a question posed to Customer Service.

But I wonder if it's legal to use teleportation to place someone over the edge of a cliff.

For example: Fae Locke is standing two squares from the edge of a a cliff. She attempts to use Summons of Khirad to damage and teleport a foe to an unoccupied square within 3 squares of herself. She hits and teleports her foe over the 100' cliff. (or it could be an acid pit or anyplace that will force the foe to 'fall')

Is this legal???

 

[Syrsuro]

I think by RAI, it is clearly not intended.

Whether or not it is legal by RAW is subject to great debate- but only if you are unconcerned with the designers intent.

Carl

 

[Nifft]

Yep, same basic answer here: it's only up to interpretation if you desire a broken game.

RAW may be ambiguous, but the implications of the two rulings are quite plain: adding Xd10 damage to forced teleport powers, particularly multiple-round ones like Summons of Kharaid, is simply not balanced.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Skyscraper]

As mentioned in another thread where the question came up, i'd probably allow a save as per other forced movement powers that force you into a cliff. If the target makes the save, it falls prone at the origin square.

Sky

 

[Shadewyn]

Terrain is part of all encounters now in 4E. Its a basic design element for a fight now.

Look at Keep on the Shadowfell final fight.

Spoiler

You have an undead nuker standing next to a giant pit. The encoutner is designed for a player to use a power to knock that undead inside.

There are dozens of WotC encounters now that have strange and unusual "squares of death" be they pits, fires, machinery, cliffs, etc ...

RAW allows it.
RAI encounter based design practally encourges it from all WotC products.
Player fun factor demands it.

Does it create an imbalance? No ... just remember that monsters get to push players over cliffs too.

Now teleporting folks 10 squares into the air is a different story and there are rules that keep the movement horizontal.

 

[Hermod]

I agree, if I couldn't teleport a foe into a hazard, like a 100 foot drop I'd be pretty annoyed with my DM. As a DM it's just something you have to think about, if one of the players has a new teleport power then make sure the big epic encounters are pit fall free. It's as simple as that, if you're afraid of abuse don't give the players the opition in the first place.

 

[Syrsuro]

Terrain is part of all encounters now in 4E. Its a basic design element for a fight now.

Look at Keep on the Shadowfell final fight.

Spoiler

You have an undead nuker standing next to a giant pit. The encoutner is designed for a player to use a power to knock that undead inside.

There are dozens of WotC encounters now that have strange and unusual "squares of death" be they pits, fires, machinery, cliffs, etc ...

RAW allows it.
RAI encounter based design practally encourges it from all WotC products.
Player fun factor demands it.

Does it create an imbalance? No ... just remember that monsters get to push players over cliffs too.

Now teleporting folks 10 squares into the air is a different story and there are rules that keep the movement horizontal.

We are no longer discussing PUSHING (or other forced movement). We are discussing Teleporting.

Pushing someone over a cliff specifically allows a save to go prone and avoid the effect.

Teleporting does not allow for this by the RAW.

Thus analogies to forced movement do not apply.

Carl

 

[catsclaw227]

We are no longer discussing PUSHING (or other forced movement). We are discussing Teleporting.

Pushing someone over a cliff specifically allows a save to go prone and avoid the effect.

Teleporting does not allow for this by the RAW.

Thus analogies to forced movement do not apply.

Exactly. And I think this is why we need a clarification from CustServ.

 

[James McMurray]

Now teleporting folks 10 squares into the air is a different story and there are rules that keep the movement horizontal.

Where?

 

[MarkB]

As mentioned in another thread where the question came up, i'd probably allow a save as per other forced movement powers that force you into a cliff. If the target makes the save, it falls prone at the origin square.

I have a much harder time wrapping my head round this one than the rule for saves vs. normal forced movement, simply because a save in that case represents a conscious reaction to danger, and with forced teleportation, the subject doesn't know how much danger they're in until after they teleport.

So either they should be entitled to a save against every forced teleport, hazardous or not, or else no save should apply.

A possible compromise, given that most teleportation effects are short-range, would be to give the subject a save if there are any areas of hazardous terrain within their perception range, as they could reasonably assume that's their likely destination.

Alternatively, if there are any safe squares adjacent to the destination square, allow the subject to land prone in that square on a successful save - representing them grabbing a nearby ledge as they appear over a precipice, or diving out of a harmful area before it can deal damage to them. If they're not adjacent to a safe square, then they're out of luck.