Teleport foes over a cliff - Forked Thread: Push+Wall=save

[Nifft]

It's the only teleporting power that I've seen that specifically states that the target must appear on a solid surface.

It's a logical fallacy to think that one power mentioning a thing implies that it is an exception to a general (and invisible) rule.

For example, Paladins specifically are allowed to use Holy Avengers. Some people thinks that this implies Clerics aren't; those people are wrong.

Cheers, -- N

 

[catsclaw227]

It's the only teleporting power that I've seen that specifically states that the target must appear on a solid surface.

And I am guessing that the other teleportation powers in the PHB will be eratta'd to reflect this notation as well.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I dunno...if my GM gives me an encounter with a 100 foot cliff in it, I'm guessing it's intended that the players, the monsters or both can use that 100' cliff. Otherwise why put it there?

And the reasoning that "a space the target can occupy" must be "a space the target can occupy safely, without gravitational consequences" seems a bit stretched to me. How does the teleport effect "know" whether the target is a flyer? Perhaps this finally gives wizards a reason to memorize feather fall instead of shield.

Similarly, treating teleport as forced movement that allows a save if the destination is dangerous terrain requires that the target somehow know that the destination is dangerous, and have a means of resisting or avoiding it...and that the target also knows when the destination square is NOT dangerous terrain, and is unable in that circumstance to resist or avoid, even though he doubtless knows his foe is not teleporting him to the magic ice cream mountain to get his free pony.

I think if there is a balance issue here it needs to be solved in a way that doesn't strain common sense quite so much.
Plan A: decide that all teleporting is more or less horizontal (perhaps with a maximum vertical component of 10' per character level, to allow some getting out of pits and such) and allow cliffs to be used as instant wins if the GM puts them there.

Plan B: allow saves vs all teleports.

Plan C: Assume that teleport magic allows soft landings, in the same way levitate and fly spells do when they are suddenly cut off. Plausible explanation: Teleporting is frequently off by a few inches or feet, and since two objects cannot occupy the same space-time, all teleports include a few seconds of insubstantiality while reality adjusts around the target so that the target is not embedded in an object, which would cause magical paradoxes and make Ioun cry. In situations where the target is unexpectedly airborne, this same property allows it to drift gently down as it gradually gains mass.

 

[cmbarona]

For example, Paladins specifically are allowed to use Holy Avengers. Some people thinks that this implies Clerics aren't; those people are wrong.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your argument is incorrect. Paladins are mentioned in the flavor text of the Holy Avenger stat block. And even then, it just says that Paladins seek them, not that others don't.

By contrast, Avaunt Foe's examined text is in the rules section of the power. In exception-based design, Thaiger's argument seems to make perfect sense.

 

[catsclaw227]

By contrast, Avaunt Foe's examined text is in the rules section of the power. In exception-based design, Thaiger's argument seems to make perfect sense.

Maybe, but I am still guessing that the other powers will be eratta'd in a similar way to reflect the rules as intended.

I dunno...if my GM gives me an encounter with a 100 foot cliff in it, I'm guessing it's intended that the players, the monsters or both can use that 100' cliff. Otherwise why put it there?

Why put it there? For some DMing styles, this kind of statement would raise some hackles.

It wasn't "put" there. It has always existed there and the PCs stumbled upon it and an encounter occurs there as a matter of happenstance.

In a sandbox style game, sometimes an encounter occurs because the PCs decided to move along a certain part of the geography of the world the players are in. The world, and therefore the cliff, exists there because it's just part of the geography. Not all world terrain exists for the purposes of encounter design. What if the PCs were seeking out a peaceful cliff dwelling tribe and for some reason, an NPC reacts negatively to a PC's attitude, or a PC becomes threatening (who knows, some players can be jerks for no reason)? The DM didn't intend this to be an "encounter area" with predesigned terrain. A cliff can become deadly in this case.

My point is, in many sandbox style games, the cliff isn't "put there" as an encounter terrain element. It just exists.

Now.... I am not DMing a sandbox game, as I don't have the time for that kind of homebrewing, but instead I run pre-published adventures. In this case, if an encounter is designed with a cliff nearby, then I would say it becomes hindering terrain and any effects to teleport or force move would require a save.

 

[Stalker0]

My point is, in many sandbox style games, the cliff isn't "put there" as an encounter terrain element. It just exists.

Yes and no. I mean, if you are visiting some people that actually built their homes in the side of a mountain, then sure the cliffs will always be there.

But in people living near cliffs are going to put their homes 50 feet or so away from the cliff most likely, which is generally out of range for most forced movement effects.

So while the cliff might be there as far as the general geography, as far as the very small battle grid (when compared to the actual terrain) it is less likely.

 

[Shadewyn]

The teleport into a square you can occupy does not have anything to do with "does it have a floor" or not. Its a fall back to older D&D edition issues with teleport and what you can call the "nightcrawler problem" of can you teleport into a solid object.

Way way way back in ancient edisionts of D&D you could just teleport the BBEG into a solid wall for autokill, then powers and spells gained the "shunting effects" where targets in solid locations would be shunted out to the nearest exit taking damage. In 4E stuff just autofails if you choose an invalid target like "10' into the solid granite of a mountain".

We already know from prior questions and issues on other items that "square" really means "cube". All squares are really 5x5x5 cubes for handling things like flight and elvataion issues.

We also know that you could teleport a target into difficult terrain, or into a square with an active hazard like fire, a floor filled with caltrops, etc ...

The issue revolves around "to much damage to a player" then ... and that falls back to the GM. A GM is not supposed to put a 100' cliff in a combat encounter unless they are willing to have it used. KotS, Thunderspire, and Pyramid are all very clear on the danger level of hazards so that the player can survive if they get knocked in, which puts it well in range of a monster taking it.

If you are Epic level where folks can fly, level mountians, and travel the planes then teleporting a monster over a cliff after you hit it with an attack roll is not that bad. Its a creative use of a hazard placed by the GM and for the one monster now and then that it effects ... ehh ... the fun factor far outwieghs the desire to graind out an artificially hard combat on players.

 

[taza]

Remember, there's treasure on that body that they're probably not getting back.

Ha, YES! This fact alone would keep the question from ever coming up with the group I'm DMing. I fully expect those cheap sons-of-#%&@es to be looting clubs off of ogres in their Paragon levels.

"Ooh, get that club - we can sell that!"

"You mean that heavy log that smells of ogre sweat and still has bits of Dwarf skull stuck to it? Yeah, that'll probably net you a whole silver split between the five of you."

"Good. We should hit a stream on the way back to town to wash it off."