Tell Me About A Tiger's Full Attack...

[Jeff Wilder]

Did I miss someone pointing out this line from the "Rake" entry in the SRD?

"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."

Seems pretty clear to me. You can charge and full attack, including rake because Pounce specifically says so, but you can't gain rake(s) from Improved Grab on the round you charge, because you didn't begin your turn grappling.

 

[akbearfoot]

It's pretty clear that after you charge an opponent, you get 1 attack....with pounce you charge the opponent and then get a full attack instead of a single attack. The wording even says 'instead'. If it is not referring to the single attack you get after a charge, then what other single attack is it supposed to be replacing?

That's a big stretch, Glass.

 

[glass]

It's pretty clear that after you charge an opponent, you get 1 attack....with pounce you charge the opponent and then get a full attack instead of a single attack. The wording even says 'instead'. If it is not referring to the single attack you get after a charge, then what other single attack is it supposed to be replacing?

Except that it doesn't say 'instead'. It does, however, quite specifically say 'follow'. Like I said.

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

glass.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Except that it doesn't say 'instead'. It does, however, quite specifically say 'follow'. Like I said.



glass.

I see what they did there. The Pounce entry doesn't match any of the entries in the descriptions of the monsters with the Pounce ability.

Pounce (Ex): If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Pounce (Ex): If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Pounce (Ex): If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Pounce (Ex): If a hellcat charges, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Pounce (Ex): If a deinonychus charges, it can make a full attack.

Pounce (Ex): If a megaraptor charges, it can make a full attack.

wherever they got the wording for that Pounce entry in the SRD, it is wrong.

 

[frankthedm]

Pounce is a huge issue if a PC can get a hold of it because while it may not feel right having an additional full attack come after the one attack of the charge, doing it that way is far less breakable. Otherwise, if the full attack replaces the single charge attack, that opens the door to broken "extra charged based damage" on each hit of a full attack. Like taking a full iterative attack with a lance claiming the charge doubling on each damage roll.

 

[glass]

I see what they did there. The Pounce entry doesn't match any of the entries in the descriptions of the monsters with the Pounce ability.

What I did there was go to the full description of Pounce in Monster Types, Subtypes and Abilities in the SRD. The wording in the MM is identical, BTW.

wherever they got the wording for that Pounce entry in the SRD, it is wrong.

Far from 'wrong', it is the primary source. Indeed, the only source, since the brief summaries that you quote from the monster descriptions do not specify one way or the other: You will note that they do not use the word 'instead' (although neither do they use the word 'follow').

EDIT: I did check the tiger entry before I posted, but as I said it doesn't say one way or the other so I didn't bother to quote it.


glass.

 

[freyar]

Isn't charging already a full round action? So how do you "follow" charging with a full attack? Isn't it more likely that the intent of the RAW is that you "follow the movement part of the charge" with a full attack if you have pounce?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Did I miss someone pointing out this line from the "Rake" entry in the SRD?

"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."

"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."

*raises hand* Really, I'm just happy someone else finally noticed that line. Maybe now we can stop arguing about the brokeness of something the rules don't even allow.

Isn't charging already a full round action? So how do you "follow" charging with a full attack? Isn't it more likely that the intent of the RAW is that you "follow the movement part of the charge" with a full attack if you have pounce?

That's how we play it. And yes, it's quite nasty for charge-based characters. Of course, we don't let Barbarian get pounce at level 1, and incorporate things to counter charges widely into the game. My groups also tend to houserule that you can't do a mounted pounce unless your mount also has pounce, same thing for leap attack feat. It's debatable if that last thing helps much, of course.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

The Hypertext d20 SRDTM is an independent entity and is not affiliated with
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

the primary and only source, indeed.

 

[glass]

Isn't charging already a full round action? So how do you "follow" charging with a full attack?

Er, because you have a special ability called pounce that allows you to? That's what special abilities do, they make exceptions to the general rules.

Isn't it more likely that the intent of the RAW is that you "follow the movement part of the charge" with a full attack if you have pounce?

I doubt it, since as frankthedm points out doing it that way is broken. But even that is what they intended, it is not what they wrote.

the primary and only source, indeed.

Did you miss the part where I said the text in the MM is identical? To spell it out: The description of the Pounce special ability in the MM is the primary source for the Pounce ability generally, and the only source that describes whether the full attack is in addition to the charge attack or instead of it.


glass.